Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #75 on Jan 7, 2007, 4:50pm »
Quote:
iamaphoney wrote:
"I am sorry to ruin your respect for the beatles. But they were very into Crowley. Look at sgt pepper and magical mystery tour It have crowley written all over it."
Other than Crowley's face on Sgt. Pepper, I see nothing to support that statement.
"John Lennon, in an interview, says the "whole idea of the Beatles was Aliester Crowley's idea, "do what thou wilt""
Yes, that is 1/2 of Crowley's most famous statement, and the basic reason for his popularity: he advocated an individual, independent approach to life, and the pursuit of arcane knowledge.
the Beatles' album was dedicated to Satanist Aleister Crowley. It was released 20 years, to the day, after Crowley's death in 1947, and its title song began with the lyrics, "It was twenty years ago today..."
No, there's no evidence to support the claim that Sgt Pepper is dedicated to "satanist" Aleister Crowley, or anyone else for that matter. None, as far as I know. Sgt Pepper may have been released on the twentieth anniversary of Crowley's death. That proves absolutely nothing. Even if it was released on the date of his death purposefully, that doesn't mean that the Beatles were "satanists", or that "Sgt. Pepper" is Crowley, or that the album is dedicated to him. Don't misunderstand. I get what's being inferred, but if even we allow for the idea that the Beatle lyrics are about Crowley, whose spirit started teaching the Sgt. Pepper band to play when the Beatles would have been about 4 to 7 years old, it was not necessarily a satanic endeavor, regardless. I know: living as he did, Crowley would rightly have "gone to hell". And if the Beatles (or alledgedly the Beatles) had been taught by Crowley's spirit how to "learn to play" (live independently), then they might have chosen to honor his advocacy of living freely with Pepper. But to suggest that the Sgt Pepper lyrics are an advocacy of satanic practise is a stretch, and the link is too tenuous to be provable in any case.
The album's cover featured a picture of Crowley.
And about 70 other people.
Paul McCartney said of Sgt. Pepper's cover: we were going to have photos on the wall of all our heroes.
Bill said that. Why is Crowley so well known and, in some ways, admired to this day? Because he was a deviant and alledgedly a satanist? No. He is respected for his writings on arcane subjects, and his advocacy of the independent pursuit of life's mysteries. He's respected for his advocacy of the personal freedom to live life as one sees fit. If the Beatles were "the whole idea" of that principal, it doesn't mean they were advocates of satanism, regardless of what BS you might read on some sites that try to make the Beatles into devil-worshippers. The Beatles may have been about "do what you want to do, and go where you're going to; think for yourself..." I believe they were also about something much bigger than that, but nothing "satanic".
If you were to make an argument for Led Zepellin devoting albums to Crowley, you'd probably get less of an argument from me. It was on one of their albums that the "my sweet satan" speech reversal is heard. It is not heard on any Beatle song, to the best of my knowledge.
sorry i didnt mean to upset you..
i´ve just copy paste the thing about the "satanist" Crowley..
but in MMT there are 4-5 magicans just like crowleys book "Magick" a lot of simularities in the MMT "Magican" story and Crowley.
I am not saying crowley was a satanist,he was into the hippie trippie thing,really!
Also im not quite sure about the bill thing. How do we know his name is Bill? I cant find any evidence that point in any Bill direction.. I like the thought of Bill campbell...
I like the reverse in Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band BCHLPS BC HLPS
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #76 on Jan 7, 2007, 6:06pm »
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Quote:
Hmmm. I don't know, Crowley really isn't my sort of thing.
Lady Madonna has a 8th note bass line that crawls around in A major in octaves. The right hand is a playful statement of the tune. (Concerning the intro). Practice the hands separately one at a time, then put them together, a measure at a time if necessary.
It isn't really hard but if a bit of walking counterpoint in the left hand is new to you, this is a good way to get started on that kind of figure.
Yes, Let it Be came in with the end of the '60s and the birth of the early seventies eight note ballad, (Barry Manilow, the Carpenters, REO Speedwagon, Air Supply, Peter Allen, so many others..... )where the right hand plays a sort of "We've Only Just Begun" figure with the left hand sitting on a whole note (in octaves again) one to a bar, mostly. You don't have to keep track of as much! The left hand is relatively inactive. Again, Lady Madonna is equally active in the two hands.
And all during these 1968 sessions, what WAS John Lennon REALLY doing?
Why, inventing the iPod, of course! Not since Al Gore!
Doc, the piano bass line and melody of "Lady Madonna" is a PLAGIARISM of the 1956 British swing hit "Bad Penny Blues."
"Let it Be" is a PLAGIARISM of the Bercaud 1950s hit "Let It Be Me."
during these 1968 sessions, what WAS John Lennon REALLY doing?
Was John Lennon even alive? What was Charlie Brill doing?
From an amazon review of an album featruing Humpherey Lyttleton:
"I'm no jazz fan anymore than John Lennon was-yet he once named Bad Penny Blues as the only jazz he could listen to.In 1968 this 1956 instrumental was the main influence behind Lady Madonna. Me I like instrumentals from the Golden Age-Duane Eddy,Sandy Nelson,Link Wray,the Ventures etc. And Bad Penny Blues is to my mind the greatest instrumental EVER. Hrearing this at the time you never wanted it to end-that beautifully dry percussion sound,the muted trumpet,the piano riff-you could fall into it. The disc was produced by somebody called Dennis Lansdowne who had a studio and it was engineered by a young Joe Meek a few years away from his own take on pop music.In his biog it mentions things he added to it which were not to the jazzmans liking but it went out anyway as it was thank God Lyttleton is a British institution-a very clever guy who was once a cartoonist and managed to keep the same wife.Makes a guy feel inferior but there you go. He should have been knighted long ago"
Thank you for the info, and the title. I have listened, and I hear the aural similarities that you hear. I see a big difference betwen note for note plagiarism and influences.
We can avoid this type of exchange by reading this:
Plagiarism is illegal and wrong, and as well as that I hate people who do it. This indicates that they don't have an adequate of music knowledge to produce their own music. Lacks of talent.
really gets me......
Do they have any idea that in classical music, the study of it, we observe there were "schools of competition", meaning time periods and localities, that "breed" certain kinds of music? Not always "schools" in a literal since, but merely streams of musical thought flowing togeher through many musicians during a particular epoch.
These music schools thru the centuries have tended to "inculcate" stylistic leadings.
i.e. Haydn, early Mozart, and very early Beethoven, while still showing palpable differences, also show marked stylistic simlarites, statements, chord progessions?
Also, some Schubert, Mendelsohn and early Schumann pieces as well...as wel as their long forgotten contemporaries, which are many, like Nicolas Gade and others, who wrote with many a similar cadence, scoring style, motivic design?
Bach imitated; but soon Bach became more imitated himself! Scarletti wrote at the same time, but lived far away in Spain, free fro the shackles of German conventions, and in a hospitable situation for creativity, and his works are vastly different from Bach's.
My point is that as musicians, we are influenced by what we have heard. Being influenced is not a crime. Point 1.
Point 2---is we listened to nothing, we would never write. All music composition builds upon the previous generation of music. A composer living in 1840 has no exposure or knowledge of what kinds of atonal/12tone music cam about in the 1920-40's.
No architect builds a house without studying floor plans and houses of all periods up to his; no dress maker can design a dress without understanding the couture of the times leading up to his; no corporate exec can design a corporation without training and exposure to centuries of business evolution.
This is WHY we have schools.
And this person who says
Plagiarism is illegal and wrong, and as well as that I hate people who do it. This indicates that they don't have an adequate of music knowledge to produce their own music. Lacks of talent.
needs to go to music school for about 4 years and find out what goes into musical composition. There are techniques, there are modalities. There are styles and examples.
There are "standard" concepts in music, just as there are "standard" concepts, for example, as far as what it is that goes into building a car. Cars all have doors, a windshield, brakes, and a steering wheel! Is this plagiarism? No! Thay are standardized elements.
Boogie Woogie is a musical form with standardized elements. Without common traits by which to identify a style, there is no style to be named!
Most boogie woogie is an "8 to the bar", swinging music with a walking bass line that crawls the arpeggios in a twelve bar bluse pattern.
Now, as swing music began to wane and rock and roll gained in popularity, the newer music tended to be straight eight notes, even.
Nothig wrong with sharing bass lines.
One thing you learn, for exampl, about a form like disco, is there are like 5 or 6 mainstream drum patterns, and 5 or 6 bass line TYPES always used in that music from '77-80. There are variations, and rock disco since then took it to new place, but late 70's disco is all about a handful of well established, often used patterns.
So was the bossa nova.
So was big band swing.
So was ragtime.
So were sambas.
So were beguines.
Mambos.
Waltzes
Hula songs.
Broadway two-beats.
Country western two-beats.
Rockabilly shuffles.
70's quarter note ballads.
Straight ahead walking four bop.
Jazz waltzes.
So were marches, for crimeys sake, everything John Phillip Sousa wrote sounds like every other march in the world from that time.
Plus the ULTIMATE stupidity of this statement:
Plagiarism is illegal and wrong, and as well as that I hate people who do it. This indicates that they don't have an adequate of music knowledge to produce their own music. Lacks of talent.
Lord, give me strength.
Do they know, that for instance, the exact melody and chords for a popular 40's song called "Tonight we Love" is a verbatum quote from Tscahikovsky's First Piano Concerto.
"Full Moon and Empty Arms" is from a Rachmaninoff piano concerto.
From the same concerto comes the tune for Eric Carmen's 'All By Myself', and from the 2nd Rachmaninoff symphony comes Carmen's tune for "Never Gonna Fall in Love Again."
But this person says that "all plagiarism is a crime.", and that people only do it when they have a lack of talent.
This reveals a naiveté about music, AFAIAC.
Well, then, this Eric person should go to jall! I hate him, cause he's a copywrite infringer! He lacks of talent, and has no abilities sufficient to produce his own. I hate him. Those songs should be illegal on the radio then.
Well, then, Betsy, did you know that Gounod, a French composer, took a Bach clavier piece and used the chords and exact accompaniment to write his own version of Ave Maria? Note for note? Huh? Do you know what a clavier is, hon?
Well, then, Gounod is also a perpitraitor and must pay. Does Bach know about this outrage?
Fine. Bach is dead, honey. And so is Gounod. BIDGID. lol
You can reuse public domain music any way you wish at any time. There is no crime possible. It belongs to the public. And this is a VERY good thing. For al music to have copyright protection from antiquity, would ruin the world of music for the common people.
Eventually, you wouldn't be able to play Three Blind Mice or Amazing Grace in the privacy of your own home without a permit. How long before they say, "Hey , we own all 12 notes of the scale, you can't play music at all without paying a music fee to the Ministry of Vibration...."
Hey, it's a slippery slope folks. The powers that be have declared a moratorium on allowing anything to slip into Public Domain. It used to be 75 years, I think. But they have frozen it at 1924. If it is written then or afterwards, there is currently no date set to turn the status over.
The music should be owned by the owner for a reasonable period of their life so that they may reap the benefits of it. Then, it should pass on to the public domain, for the public to own it, and enjoy it freely. Otherwise, lawyers, record companies, and probably very untalented grand-chldren, who had NOTHING to do with writing the music in the first place, continue to profit on work in which they played no role. And why should they continue to protect it? Protect it from what? Protect themselves from loss of royalty income. Are Bach's GGGGGgrandchildren receiving $$$ for the B minor Mass? No. We'd never hear it again if churches had to pay exorbitant fees to mount this time honored classic.
I don't even believe George Harrison committed deliberate plagiarism. Yes, the ii7-V7 cadence with the hook (in his song where the back up girls echo him, in the Chiffons song it's the "He's So Fine" part, I think those 4 bar turn-arounds are remarkably similar, and no doubt a subconscious quote on Harrison's part. The other chord changes and melody are totally different, sorry. How many Carole King songs have this same ii7-V7 progression? Shall I find them and put them up?
Or is it the back ground echo? How many on like manner are there?
Let it Be and Let it Be Me
C G/B Am F6 C/G Gsus G F C/E Dm7 C
C G/B Am Em/G F6 C/E Dm7 G C
Chords pattern is similar.
Same as Theme from Billy Jack, and Beethoven's E major piano sonata 1st movement, though in E major, its the same progresion by function.
Or the intro measure to "Goodbye Yellow Brick road"
F C/E Dm Fmaj7/C Bb C11 C7 F
which, transposed to "C" major, gives us:
C G/B Am Cmaj7/G F G11 G7 C
I-V/vii-vi-I/V-IV-Vsus11-V7-I
or
1, 5 over 7, 6 minor, 1 over 5, 4, 5sus11-V-I
The melody of Let it Be me starts on the third tone of the scale, goes to the fifth tone, and wlks down to the second tone diatonically.
The first part of Let it Be starts on the fifth (When I find my), passes thru the 6(self) and the 2(in), G again, (times of) goes up to the tonic above(troub), upper neighbor on the second (le), appogiaturas the 2nd (d)(moth) to the third (E)(-er Mar) and comes back down(D) (ry-comes) to the tonic (C)(to me).
There is no resemblance.
Let it be is largely sung on the C major pentatonic scale. If Let it Be Me were pitched in C, it is a C major diatonic based tune, there are plenty of leading tones (the seventh) in the melody, which Let it Be always avoids. No B naturals in the tune! NONE!
There is precious little significant compositional similarity to that song.
Don't make me go ballistic and actually write a screed!
Hey, I love you all, but don't try to pass one like this over on me! There is no real palpable plagiarism in any of these cases. Surface similarities ( a few), stylistic devices in common.
I have to say, that what is so glaringly similar between Bad Penny Blues and Lady Madonna, is the walking bass in the piano left hand, and the right hand does a similar riff to Madonna, i.e. blues thirds with grace notes in a syncopated pattern, improvised........and the drum pattern, a sort of two beat, is common place in this kind of music, tough the mic-ing of it and the general feel very much evoke Lady Madonna (or vice versa)
Hey, maybe Bill PLAYED piano on the track?............
Even so, I am sure we can pull out some New Orleans stuff with very similar elements. Again, the actually melody and chord progression is not the same. You are relating the blue notes and a lot of seventh chords between the two songs. Again, I can find 10,000 songs of like elements.
Lady Madonna is also at a faster click.
Did you actually mean your inference, or did I just take the bait? lol
All kindness intended------but tie idea of plagiarism can't fly.
Even the original four Beatles (oops) admitted that Buddy Holly and Elvis contributed INFLUENCES to their writing.
Look, they TEACH young rock musicians in music schools now how to write a 12 bar blues, how to write a rock a billy song, how to write a British Invasion song..........
They teach young architects how to design a tower, or a parking lot, or a motel.
Some things are givens, are standardized.
For plagiarism to be an issue, it is not up to the ears of musicians who haven't listened broadly enough to learn this phenomenon and recognize it for what it is. It is a legal issue, and can only be determined by appointed experts who can rationally determine to what degree specific elements have been "pirated", i.e., the sequence of melody notes (minus riffs and ornaments) and the precise chord progression, also the lyrics.
You can not copy-write an accompaniment figure, only the tune that rides it and the sequence of harmonies if the melody matches. You can not copy-write a chord progression on it's own merit either, or EVERY COMPOSER WHO EVER LIVED WOULD HAVE TO GO TO PRISON FOR DOING IT. The progression alone is not enough, it's the essential tune. Think how many jazz standards are re-harmonized broadway songs? I have heard "My Favorite Things" done with substitute chords from start to finish on a recent jazz vocal record, and I am sure the gal had to pay royalties for it. Tune and words. That is a song.
This is at the heart of my argument with your claim. You are pointing at the accompaniment. I am pointing at the song itself. Lady Madonna exists as a song in intellectual property, played in any style one chooses. It could be played as unrecognizable to you, but as long as word and tune flow as the copywritten example does, then there is a violation if royalties aren't paid or permission granted.
See my point? You are listening for the wrong things, legally speaking.
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #77 on Jan 7, 2007, 6:25pm »
That the chord pattern of Let It Be and Let It Be Me is so similar just makes it all the more brazen (as does the blatant lyrics and title theft!) but the proof of copycatting is in the MELODY; the chords/key are almost irrelevant. The essence of the song is in the part you whistle, sing (in whatever scale and mode) and hum; the rest is music theory B.S. rationalizing. In this case the melody from start to finish are extremely similar, almost identical in places, such as the BEGINNING. I'm amazed you don't hear this: try listening again.
It's obvious what the writers for the "Beatles"did: they took the score of Let It Be Me and fudged around a few notes and chords in various places, adding a few bars of some new melody. They Let It Be by dropping the "Me" in "do re me fa so."
I'm not looking at this as a legal issue, I'm analyzing how the Beatles' writers came up with such great songs (they did it by stealing other great songs).
The melody of Let it Be me starts on the third tone of the scale, goes to the fifth tone, and wlks down to the second tone diatonically.
The first part of Let it Be starts on the fifth (When I find my), passes thru the 6(self) and the 2(in), G again, (times of) goes up to the tonic above(troub), upper neighbor on the second (le), appogiaturas the 2nd (d)(moth) to the third (E)(-er Mar) and comes back down(D) (ry-comes) to the tonic (C)(to me).
There is no resemblance.
Let it be is largely sung on the C major pentatonic scale. If Let it Be Me were pitched in C, it is a C major diatonic based tune, there are plenty of leading tones (the seventh) in the melody, which Let it Be always avoids. No B naturals in the tune! NONE!
There is precious little significant compositional similarity to that song.
Don't make me go ballistic and actually write a screed!
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #78 on Jan 7, 2007, 6:40pm »
Quote:
That the chord pattern of Let It Be and Let It Be Me is so similar just makes it all the more brazen (as does the blatant lyrics and title theft!) but the proof of copycatting is in the MELODY; the chords/key are almost irrelevant. The essence of the song is in the part you whistle, sing (in whatever scale and mode) and hum; the rest is music theory B.S. rationalizing. In this case the melody from start to finish are extremely similar, almost identical in places, such as the BEGINNING. I'm amazed you don't hear this: try listening again.
It's obvious what the writers for the "Beatles"did: they took the score of Let It Be Me and fudged around a few notes and chords in various places, adding a few bars of some new melody. They Let It Be by dropping the "Me" in "do re me fa so."
I'm not looking at this as a legal issue, I'm analyzing how the Beatles' writers came up with such great songs (they did it by stealing other great songs).
The melody of Let it Be me starts on the third tone of the scale, goes to the fifth tone, and wlks down to the second tone diatonically.
The first part of Let it Be starts on the fifth (When I find my), passes thru the 6(self) and the 2(in), G again, (times of) goes up to the tonic above(troub), upper neighbor on the second (le), appogiaturas the 2nd (d)(moth) to the third (E)(-er Mar) and comes back down(D) (ry-comes) to the tonic (C)(to me).
There is no resemblance.
Let it be is largely sung on the C major pentatonic scale. If Let it Be Me were pitched in C, it is a C major diatonic based tune, there are plenty of leading tones (the seventh) in the melody, which Let it Be always avoids. No B naturals in the tune! NONE!
There is precious little significant compositional similarity to that song.
Don't make me go ballistic and actually write a screed!
If they took the score to Let It Be Me, then they changed each and every note, and therefore the tune is in no way like the first one.
There is no illegality for sound-a-likes or for imitations or parody versions of a melody. That is done all the time.
Oh, wait, I get you, you are saying, forget the legal question. You are saying that they came up with their material by taking a successful working model, and writing a "spoof" (not as meaning funny, but as meaning a "knock-off).
Even so, the accompaniment to Lady Madonna, surely, yes, the accompaniment is a bit of a knock off to Bad Penny Blues, yes. But the song, the tune, and the progression, are far afield.
I hear nothing between LIB and LIBM as reminding me in any way of the other. They are both slow ballads. I just don't hear what you are hearing on those two. Sorry. I can't fathom an episode with Bill or George or John sitting down with LIBM and taking it apart and doing a knock off on it. There is not enough there. There are so many of those LIBM songs from that period, why that one? The title?
"It is quite possible that societies - much like individuals - collectively repress information, concepts, and ideas which would produce high anxiety levels if dealt with consciously."
song by Gilbert Bécaud, Mann Curtis, and Pierre Delanoé.
The tune is way unrelated. Rhythm, arc, pitches, phrase length. An "A" section in LIBM is 8 measures long, it's 4 measures in LIB.
The bridge in LIBM goes the IV, LIB goes to the vi.
Theory crap or not, the tune has entirely different sequence off intervals starting on entirely different tones of the common scale. (as if they were i the same key)
Shall I make lead sheets and let you physically see how they hit scale tones in a different order with different rhythm?
Why am I so testy today? nurse!.....
Anyway, there' s no resemblence, in a theoretical sense. Nothing alike. It's Apple and oranges.
"It is quite possible that societies - much like individuals - collectively repress information, concepts, and ideas which would produce high anxiety levels if dealt with consciously."
Yes, and a nice version I might add, and yes, I can sing (croak) a vocal (loosely speaking) of "Let It Be" over on top of the music, it fits with it well enough except for 3 or 4 harmonic points.
It fits as counterpoint as a rough counterpoint, changing a note hear and there would give it better consonance. But it's in stretto with the tune, i.e. they move when I rest, I move when they rest, and their points of arrival are all "counter" to mine, i.e., we may share a passing tone or two, but I never sit on a note where they sit.
The melodies are independent of each other. Maybe Bill sat and improvised a counter melody to it, or merely on top of a similar chord pattern. Maybe he just started out with the first three chords and went wild from there.
There is not enough in common to say "stolen" or even "derived". Related? Possibly, like 19th cousins............
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #86 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:09pm »
On re-listening to LIBM I gotta say it's not as close a tune to LIB as I remember it (hearing the Becaud original and the midi); but I still think that it probably served as the model with which they built LIB, Doc.
On a different note, I found that the opening to the LIB movie was dubbed with a fake classical-sounding (like Bach) piano solo by Faul ! Here is the actual audio they dubbed over with the classical sounding segment (who actually played this?)
THIS NOW-EXPOSED FAKERY MADE FAUL APPEAR TO BE A BETTER PIANIST AND COMPOSER/MUSICIAN THAN HE IS.
There is not enough in common to say "stolen" or even "derived". Related? Possibly, like 19th cousins............
Closer than that.
it's in stretto with the tune, i.e. they move when I rest, I move when they rest, and their points of arrival are all "counter" to mine, i.e., we may share a passing tone or two, but I never sit on a note where they sit
Yet the phrasing of melodic breaks/intervals of the two songs is similar and in a similar pattern.
I have had to use them to create suck*ss backing trax and it so galls me now (because my equipment is dated and I never got any better at it) that I get physically nauseated when I have to crank one out.
"It is quite possible that societies - much like individuals - collectively repress information, concepts, and ideas which would produce high anxiety levels if dealt with consciously."
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #89 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:22pm »
Quote:
On re-listening to LIBM I gotta say it's not as close a tune to LIB as I remember it (hearing the Becaud original and the midi); but I still think that it probably served as the model with which they built LIB, Doc.
On a different note, I found that the opening to the LIB movie was dubbed with a fake classical-sounding (like Bach) piano solo by Faul ! Here is the actual audio they dubbed over with the classical sounding segment (who actually played this?)
There is not enough in common to say "stolen" or even "derived". Related? Possibly, like 19th cousins............
Closer than that.
Well now that's a nice clip----the music he is playing seems to me like a bluesy improv, str8 8ths, C7-G7-F7, rock fill piano stuff. I don't remember the classical stuff at the moment. I may pull the DVD.
What a great piano..........
Good to see George looking well there....Ringo is down. off topic, but that may be the best Paul look ever achieved.
hehe but thanks anyway, as the great LIBM/LIB debate rages onward......lol just kidding, I have spent my wad (eeeyeww) on this topic and so now I just say "Let Me Be Mute........."
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #91 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:31pm »
Quote:
What I will say is that although I'm sure that the Sgt. Pepper cover contains a lot of clues, and it is said (I may even have said it myself before) that everything is there for a reason, there is a possibility that not everyone reflects the Beatles' opinions etc.
The best example off the top of my head is the fact that "Football Legend" Albert Stubbins appears on the afforementioned album yet the Beatles themselves have openly admitted that they weren't all that into football and it was just a name that they grew up with.
Is Albert a Satanist? I doubt it.
Are the Beatles footballers because Albert appears on the cover? No.
So to say a Satanist appears on the cover makes them Satanists doesn't quite cut it with me I'm afraid.
I don't want to seem like I'm casting aspersions (sp?) but that's JMHO...
Plus, it may be that John and others found Crowley's philosophy attractive (not exclusively his, I know) of "Do what thy will but harm no one) , which addressed the idea of liberating the conscious mind from codified dogma and prescribed religious rules. This does not mean they were avowed or even fledgling satanists.
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #92 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:35pm »
Quote:
Quote:
On re-listening to LIBM I gotta say it's not as close a tune to LIB as I remember it (hearing the Becaud original and the midi); but I still think that it probably served as the model with which they built LIB, Doc.
On a different note, I found that the opening to the LIB movie was dubbed with a fake classical-sounding (like Bach) piano solo by Faul ! Here is the actual audio they dubbed over with the classical sounding segment (who actually played this?)
There is not enough in common to say "stolen" or even "derived". Related? Possibly, like 19th cousins............
Closer than that.
Well now that's a nice clip----the music he is playing seems to me like a bluesy improv, str8 8ths, C7-G7-F7, rock fill piano stuff. I don't remember the classical stuff at the moment. I may pull the DVD.
What a great piano..........
Good to see George looking well there....Ringo is down. off topic, but that may be the best Paul look ever achieved.
Here's the opening of the released-to-the-public movie with the FAULse fake lie-overdubbed classical-like piece (called 'Paul's Theme on the bootleg track!) deceitfully overlaid for us to get lied to all these years:
Joined: Sept 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 1,648 Location: somewhere else
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #93 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:36pm »
What I will say is that although I'm sure that the Sgt. Pepper cover contains a lot of clues, and it is said (I may even have said it myself before) that everything is there for a reason, there is a possibility that not everyone reflects the Beatles' opinions etc.
The best example off the top of my head is the fact that "Football Legend" Albert Stubbins appears on the afforementioned album yet the Beatles themselves have openly admitted that they weren't all that into football and it was just a name that they grew up with.
Is Albert a Satanist? I doubt it.
Are the Beatles footballers because Albert appears on the cover? No.
So to say a Satanist appears on the cover makes them Satanists doesn't quite cut it with me I'm afraid.
I don't want to seem like I'm casting aspersions (sp?) but that's JMHO...
My point is that although they have people on the cover, it doesn't mean that they agree or are 100% into all aspects of their particular lifestyle. That just seems too obvious to me. Doc makes a good point!
edit: Sorry, went to modify but accidentally deleted! Cheers Doc for quoting before I made my mistake so I knew how it went!
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #94 on Jan 7, 2007, 7:39pm »
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On re-listening to LIBM I gotta say it's not as close a tune to LIB as I remember it (hearing the Becaud original and the midi); but I still think that it probably served as the model with which they built LIB, Doc.
On a different note, I found that the opening to the LIB movie was dubbed with a fake classical-sounding (like Bach) piano solo by Faul ! Here is the actual audio they dubbed over with the classical sounding segment (who actually played this?)
THIS NOW-EXPOSED FAKERY MADE FAUL APPEAR TO BE A BETTER PIANIST AND COMPOSER/MUSICIAN THAN HE IS.
There is not enough in common to say "stolen" or even "derived". Related? Possibly, like 19th cousins............
Closer than that.
it's in stretto with the tune, i.e. they move when I rest, I move when they rest, and their points of arrival are all "counter" to mine, i.e., we may share a passing tone or two, but I never sit on a note where they sit
Yet the phrasing of melodic breaks/intervals of the two songs is similar and in a similar pattern.
I need to do a little tonal analysis sheet, where it shows the up and down movement and pitch location on both these melodies where you can see that the arc is different, the little motives (bits of melody) are different.
Writing a pop melody is usually kind of "felt" and improved out live at an instrument. The melody of the Italian pop tune (LIBM) has more of a "written on the page first" kind of feel to it. I cold be wron gabout that, but it's very sqaure, simplistic, based on one repeated 2 bar motive, and cycllically predictable. You hear the end coming before it gets there. That madeit popular to the older generation.
Let It Be is only predicatable in a sense to us now because we've all heard it so much. But it moves up and down, in lovely broad melodic arches. Frankly, for me, it's a much better song then LIBM.......
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #95 on Jan 7, 2007, 8:01pm »
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Quote:
Well now that's a nice clip----the music he is playing seems to me like a bluesy improv, str8 8ths, C7-G7-F7, rock fill piano stuff. I don't remember the classical stuff at the moment. I may pull the DVD.
What a great piano..........
Good to see George looking well there....Ringo is down. off topic, but that may be the best Paul look ever achieved.
Here's the opening of the released-to-the-public movie with the FAULse fake lie-overdubbed classical-like piece (called 'Paul's Theme on the bootleg track!) deceitfully overlaid for us to get lied to all these years:
This lie-overdubbing of Let It Be opens upsome great new vistas. Like the part where they try to authenticate Faul by having him reminisce about the early days of the JPM Beatles (at 5:36): I notice WE NEVER SEE HIS FACE OR HIS LIPS MOVING ---IT'S ALL SHOT FROM THE BACK.Perfect for a fake script reading to be later dubbed in.
Joined: May 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 3,896 Location: Reasonably close to a diatribe
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #96 on Jan 7, 2007, 9:07pm »
Still, William might have played the classical improv (I don't recognize it, I think it's improv, though it may be a passage from a classical piece I am not familiar with) The intonation doesn't match. The classical recording is many cents flat of the bluesy piano recording. The sound matches the action in the second bluesy version.
In the classical version, the piano also has a number of notes a bit of of tune, as well as being under standard 440. This could be a film speed issue.
There could be an edit. Bill may be playing what is heard in the earlier parts, then the piano is tuned, they return, move the mics, and sort of dove tail the shots together to look like they were continuous.
But also, to my ears, the piano tone doesn't match thought that could be other reasons. It is possibly a different piano. There is a good quarter tone difference between the instruments, which is a long way to bring up to pitch at one time all 88 strings on a piano. And if it is 2 different pianos, the classical piece, which is interesting, was played on an inferior sounding piano.
Tuning and freshly voicing a piano can do wonders on a good instrument.
I tend to think it is two pianos, both played by Bill, and edited in in post production.
Joined: Feb 2006 Gender: Male Posts: 758 Location: In search of sasquatch
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #97 on Jan 7, 2007, 10:33pm »
Well, John did want Jesus, Ghandi, and Hitler on the cover as well.
Maybe these are the ingredients that make up Lennon? Crowley + Jesus + Ghandi + Hitler?
Now, I know that John was into the occult (says so in Fred Seamans book, and Fred Seaman dont lie!... kidding)
But it disturbs me to think that the beatles could read about some of the perverse acts of crowley and think that it was good.... I could not fathom it. You don't have to be a Christian to have morals, if the Beatles looked up to crowley that would mean that they lacked complete and total moral decency. Reading up on some of crowley's acts also puts into perspective Bill's fondness for Rams.
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #98 on Jan 8, 2007, 1:31am »
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Bach imitated; but soon Bach became more imitated himself! Scarletti wrote at the same time, but lived far away in Spain, free fro the shackles of German conventions, and in a hospitable situation for creativity, and his works are vastly different from Bach's.
Doc, did you mean Scarlatti? I know, I'm a pain in the xxx but, you know, even if he went to Spain, he was Italian...
Re: The rotten apple 2 « Reply #99 on Jan 8, 2007, 1:47am »
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plasticpaul wrote
What I will say is that although I'm sure that the Sgt. Pepper cover contains a lot of clues, and it is said (I may even have said it myself before) that everything is there for a reason, there is a possibility that not everyone reflects the Beatles' opinions etc.
Maybe all the people on the cover is somehow linked to satan. Ok I'm joking but... who knows, perhaps they are the next Dr. Faust
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