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Post by jerriwillmore on Sept 9, 2006 14:00:57 GMT -5
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Post by guitargaz on Sept 9, 2006 21:15:06 GMT -5
I don't have any info on the people pictured - other than they are not my father or Jimmy Fraser who wrote most of the songs - and who I can definitely hear doing vocals. I think the pictures were supposed to copy Mersey bands of that era rather than being Beatles imitators.
My father of course knew the Bee Gees very well, but I never heard him mention that he had met any of the Beatles - he worked with many people in the business but never crossed paths with the Beatles - I am sure the Bee Gees must have met some of the Beatles, but he didn't. It might have been amusing for him to own up to doing an exploitation album to Paul or John - and to hear whether they knew of Billy Pepper and the Pepperpots. But it didn't happen.
He may have known George Martin but I'm not sure. He knew Geoff Emerick who engineered on some Beatles albums - as I did through working with him briefly at IBC studios where I was an engineer.
So thats it really - coincidences but no connections directly. I can see why people might have tried to make these connections - due to lack of information and the searching for clues to unify the theory. In my father's case this was what you appear to have done - the Pepperpots were not a mystery - more of a joke that most involved would like to have forgotten - and it is pretty dire stuff as they would have admitted. They really should have sunk without trace in the bargain bin - where indeed a friend of ours found them not knowing it was my Dad.
The family are not really offended - it was amusing at first. Its only when you look deeper at what is being proposed and feel that having offered information that it has been ignored - that is when it became annoying for us. We wish you all well - I remain to be convinced about some of the "evidence" of the theory, but find it fascinating all the same - and I have a very open mind. I have got interested in several conspiracy theories over the years so would not put this particular one down. There are some mysteries here - but then life and people's stories don't always add up and things aren't always connected - a firm disclaimer from Mc Cartney and Starr might help but none is forthcoming. That just fans the flames I guess.
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Post by DarkHorse on Sept 9, 2006 21:59:07 GMT -5
GG,
Why do you think Bill Harry and others like him deny or have no recollection of Billy and The Pepperpots? I never gave much thought to the Pepperpots having any relevance to PID and I believe you are giving us the truth as best you know it, but when Bill Harry and the like denied having heard of the Pepperpots, it automatically made me suspicious.
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Post by Doc on Sept 10, 2006 0:36:36 GMT -5
I don't have any info on the people pictured - other than they are not my father or Jimmy Fraser who wrote most of the songs - and who I can definitely hear doing vocals. I think the pictures were supposed to copy Mersey bands of that era rather than being Beatles imitators. My father of course knew the Bee Gees very well, but I never heard him mention that he had met any of the Beatles - he worked with many people in the business but never crossed paths with the Beatles - I am sure the Bee Gees must have met some of the Beatles, but he didn't. It might have been amusing for him to own up to doing an exploitation album to Paul or John - and to hear whether they knew of Billy Pepper and the Pepperpots. But it didn't happen. He may have known George Martin but I'm not sure. He knew Geoff Emerick who engineered on some Beatles albums - as I did through working with him briefly at IBC studios where I was an engineer. So thats it really - coincidences but no connections directly. I can see why people might have tried to make these connections - due to lack of information and the searching for clues to unify the theory. In my father's case this was what you appear to have done - the Pepperpots were not a mystery - more of a joke that most involved would like to have forgotten - and it is pretty dire stuff as they would have admitted. They really should have sunk without trace in the bargain bin - where indeed a friend of ours found them not knowing it was my Dad. The family are not really offended - it was amusing at first. Its only when you look deeper at what is being proposed and feel that having offered information that it has been ignored - that is when it became annoying for us. We wish you all well - I remain to be convinced about some of the "evidence" of the theory, but find it fascinating all the same - and I have a very open mind. I have got interested in several conspiracy theories over the years so would not put this particular one down. There are some mysteries here - but then life and people's stories don't always add up and things aren't always connected - a firm disclaimer from Mc Cartney and Starr might help but none is forthcoming. That just fans the flames I guess. guitargaz-thanks for writing this post; your information has been very clarifying in my opinion and helps to dispel some wrong conclusions. I can well understand your concerns about any post made here erroneously connecting your dad to any knd of foul business. It is tricky enough on the internet to discuss hypothetical versions of events that occurred so far in the past. Establishing trust on the internet between fellow posters demands shrewd discernment on one hand, and allowing the benefit of the doubt on the other. We have to be careful not to ever let our emotions lead us into avering criminal deeds to people we really know nothing about--this is unfair and ruinous to our cause---which is merely to scrutinize everything tangible left by the Beatles in order to better understand questions we have about them. We love the Beatles; most of us love Sir Paul and think he is a marvelous musician/entertainer. Many of us are of the mindset that, whatever the mystery turns out to be, it was a thing carried out in order to solve problems, not create more. Our "curse", as it were, is perhaps an unquenchable curiosity not only of those matters, but of all things Beatles. The reality of the Pepperpots being spun off of the Beatle's runaway success is another worthy facet of the diamond we are studying. I myself have been involved in a few low level knock off recordings and a couple of light weight recording buy-outs, so I fully appreciate the nature of that beast. It is an on going segment of the music biz, and will always be around as long as albums (CD'S) are sold. Your dad having worked with heavy weights, i.e., the Bee Gees, etc., attests to the complicated nature of the music biz itself. It proves that not everybody has met everybody, and that it's not about some big single minded conspiracy orchestrated from a single office and run by 19 people. There may be some hive mentality, due to an effort by the biggest moguls in order to to hang on to their empires in whatever way necessary, but the bottom line is that most everyone is trying to just make a living and achieve some level of success for personal reasons. I for one, tend to believe that JPM's "alleged" replacement was made for reasons that were practical and perhaps benign---I don't think he was "targeted and killed" by the cabal so that a sinister organization could control his enormous fan base! I am not personally convinced he even died. I think that, in the least, he could not go on with the pace and the price of fame, and relinquished it for dread of dealing with it. Maybe injury; maybe mental duress, maybe a disease; no one knows, we admit. The Beatles had avowed enemies like the KKK, etc, and it is a possibility of foul play or even merely threats of harm made continuing untenable. Maybe a failed attempt--we just don't know. My opinion is that there is no way that the Crown would ever have chosen to harm it's own cash cow. This might have been an act of protection, also. Again, we don't know, e merely look and marvel, for what can be "seen" and "heard" about this issue from the actual output of the Beatles, is phenomenal, if your mind is open. As John Lennon told us, "There is nothing you can seen that isn't shown." It appears that the Beatles have actually asked us to LOOK, and so we are. I think the lesson in this for all of us is to observe all we can and ponder it, without rushing to accusations or aspersions. Thanks for speaking to us.
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 10, 2006 7:16:41 GMT -5
It'll be interesting to see if our researchers can find any link at all between the Bee Gee's Bill & The Pepperpots Bill. That could be a difficult feat since finding any info on the pepperpots has been almost impossible.
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Post by guitargaz on Sept 10, 2006 11:39:19 GMT -5
1. I believe you are giving us the truth as best you know it, but when Bill Harry and the like denied having heard of the Pepperpots, it automatically made me suspicious.
2.It'll be interesting to see if our researchers can find any link at all between the Bee Gee's Bill & The Pepperpots Bill. That could be a difficult feat since finding any info on the pepperpots has been almost impossible.
Two posts that puzzle me - the first presumes that there is a reason for your suspicion - Bill Harry would not have heard of them because they weren't a live band, and the records were not that successful that they became household names. What is suspicious about that. This is not the truth as best I know it - it is the truth but you can't seem to believe it for some strange reason.
The second post - how much more do you need? The fact that Jimmy Fraser was involved with the Pepperpots records (writing some of the songs singing on the tracks) and was a lifelong friend of Bill Shepherd of Bee Gees fame (my Dad moved to Florida on the advice of Jimmy and they were close neighbors till he got ill) - doesn't that clinch it for you? And I am his son and am telling you that they are the same person - over again. But you still don't believe me - yet you are more likely to believe someone else with a new theory on Paul's "replacement" than someone giving you the facts which you don't seem to want to hear. Thats the connection - I am giving it to you - you don't need further research - I have nothing to gain from this. I think the danger with this attitude of yours (and you must have found this already) is no-one will take you seriously if you can't accept the facts when they are staring you in the face. Good luck - carry on in this blind alley if you must. Other posters on this site seem to recognise a genuine poster trying to help you. You seem suspicious of everyone and think everything must be connected.
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 10, 2006 15:47:31 GMT -5
Never said I didn't believe ya, I was just thinkin' it would be good to find a tangible link other than the word of one person, that's all.
And yer probably right... Jimmy Fraser would be the place to look. No need to get all carried away & upset. But thanks for throwin' in the extra details concernin' yer dad & Fraser.
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Sept 10, 2006 16:58:53 GMT -5
I find something interesting about some of the debate. Because some people may have been connected to the Beatles may not know about every recording artist who may have recorded some Beatles songs...or who were impersonating the Beatles for a brief moment in time. It reminds me of a letter someone once wrote me who lived in Tennessee and someone had written to him and asked him if he lived in Pidgeon Forge and knew Dolly Parton. Just because someone was in the music business and was from England actually knew or even met the Beatles.
If these were an obscure group of people who recorded an album, but never really appeared in public as a group, it seems like it was a one shot deal and it was there in limbo until someone at the 60IF site decided to add this info to their already infamous story of JPM's replacement. So everybody and their brother researching and buying old records trying to find yet another revealing clue in this mystery.
I have to wonder if there is any truth at all to the 60 If document...not that JPM was replaced, I beleive that for the pictures and music speak for themselves, but the other material is questionable. I've only known about this for about a year and a half and that 60IF document has changed in the time I read it. But it loses it's credibility each time something outrageous is added like the Don Knotts, Vivian Stamshell and Neil Aspinall stuff.
Neil is marginally possibly, Vivian is not likely, and Don it out of the question.
I think we've explored the Pepperpot trail and I think it's exhausted.
I don't even believe the replacement is actually named William Campbell.
I think some of this stuff was just thrown in to make confusion and cause people to spend WAY too much time going down rabbit trails that are probably not even close to where "Faul" came from or what he did in his past.
That's my take on it.
Not all those who have been part of the Beatle mystique would know everybody in the English music scene. As in the 1960's it wasn't just the Mersey sound. There were groups, like the Animals from Birmingham (if memory serves me right, and if I'm wrong,I stand corrected) and the London scene where the Stones came from. There was the blues scene and there were more that came from some jazz backgrounds.
As big as the Beatles were, there were probably hundreds of bands, if not thousands in England alone trying to imitate the Beatles. No matter how close they could have come, they could never truly replace the original Fab Four that we know of.
As for the Faux Fab Four with "Faul", Charlie Brill, Eric Clapton as George( as another forum implied) and Fingo, well, that's the stuff of forum discussion.
It would have been nice if someone really was from this group that knew "Bill" before he became Paul, or anyone who knew him.....to just say, "Hey, I knew this guy when he was just a fireman with an hourglass...and they called him Rocky..." or something clear cut and definitive...but we just have our ideas...and that will keep us going until the truth does come out.... if it comes out....or until we go to the great beyond and truth is revealed over there....
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Post by guitargaz on Sept 10, 2006 17:19:36 GMT -5
No need to get all carried away & upset.
Apologies to all for sounding off - it is upsetting because this is my father you are talking about - not some character from a mystery novel. And I have told the facts - and I have no idea where else you'll get corroboration from when the main protagonists are dead. I'm not sure whether I want to get other family members involved - for some this may be a little upsetting - so unless someone stumbles on the site like I did, who will ever know? Just try and remember - this may be a big mystery to you, but to me its about real people who I knew at first hand. Have a little consideration and respect for them at least now that they are dead.
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 11, 2006 8:22:15 GMT -5
Apologies to all for sounding off - it is upsetting because this is my father you are talking about - not some character from a mystery novel. And I have told the facts - and I have no idea where else you'll get corroboration from when the main protagonists are dead. I'm not sure whether I want to get other family members involved - for some this may be a little upsetting - so unless someone stumbles on the site like I did, who will ever know? Just try and remember - this may be a big mystery to you, but to me its about real people who I knew at first hand. Have a little consideration and respect for them at least now that they are dead. I think any speculation about the more well-known Bill Shepherd of Bee Gee's fame has already been put to rest. There's a lot of musical Bill Shepherds out there, & at this point, (I think) we're only interested in the one who was behind one of the most obscure bands around..... the pepperpots. So obscure that the experts who brag about knowin' every single Mercybeat band go silent at the mention of the name. For me, that silence spoke volumes & all but confirmed we were on the right track. A false clue? Could be, I dunno. As far as I'm concerned... if the mercybeat expert doesn't know anything about the Pepperpots, he's not a Mercybeat expert.. So... I don't see how this remaining discussion could upset anyone. The well-known very talented Bill Shepherd of Bee Gee's fame is not the guy who was connected with the Beatles... Understood But as a group, we pride ourselves on just tryin' to stick to the facts. Speculation is fine of course, as long as it's clearly speculation & not put forth as fact. We've tried our damnedest to seperate this forum from the loony fringe forum where the craziest of ideas are discussed as fact. Like when somebody comes along & claims Don Knotts was Epsteins replacement... sounds good... just run with it! Around here, if somebody comes along & claims his dad was the Pepperpots Bill; fine, but it would be nice to find something else to back that up. And some of the little details you've contributed might help put the Pepperpots to rest also, I dunno, but Jimmy Fraser is the place to look. I may bring up this Bill Shepherd again if I feel like reporting back with a record review after I check out Aurora & some Bee Gee's, but that doesn't have anything to do with PWR so it would be posted in the off topic section. Everything seems pretty harmless at this point (to me anyway)
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Post by guitargaz on Sept 11, 2006 13:30:19 GMT -5
So obscure that the experts who brag about knowin' every single Mercybeat band go silent at the mention of the name. For me, that silence spoke volumes & all but confirmed we were on the right track. A false clue? Could be, I dunno. As far as I'm concerned... if the mercybeat expert doesn't know anything about the Pepperpots, he's not a Mercybeat expert..
Blimey - you just don't get it do you? The Mercybeat (sic) expert doesn't know anything about the Pepperpots because: a) they weren't a real live band - i.e. they never played any gigs b) they weren't from Merseyside
There is no mystery here - you are on the wrong track - my father and Jimmy were not from Liverpool or the Mersey area - and the Merseybeat expert probably did know every single group of that era from that area - thats why he had never heard of them. Its not a mysterious silence which is how you have interpreted it.
I have tried to help here - I think from now on I will maintain silence myself - go on and make a mystery out of that !
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 11, 2006 13:47:26 GMT -5
Well, I guess we just disagree as to how "expert" a proclaimed expert should be. I'm a music collector & pride myself on searchin' out the obscure stuff that's out there on the fringe. I certainly wouldn't want to call myself an expert in any given area of this obscure stuff unless I thought my knowledge was complete.
In my book, that guy was/is no expert.
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Post by DarkHorse on Sept 11, 2006 17:47:24 GMT -5
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Post by plastic paul on Sept 11, 2006 17:58:50 GMT -5
I just find it odd that there is no proper information about them anywhere and, as illustrated by DH they never appear to make these kinda lists, why?
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Post by JoJo on Sept 11, 2006 18:18:18 GMT -5
I just find it odd that there is no proper information about them anywhere and, as illustrated by DH they never appear to make these kinda lists, why? Gary would (and has) say that being such a quicky Beatle knock off, that they don't make the grade of even the most expansive list. A good question might be: How many Beatle knock offs did make the lists? Good example, The Buggs. Wiki. They aren't listed in the link DH posted, but there seems to be more info out there. Hey, here are the Pepperpots in disguise however: LinkThis is an interesting comment: Peter Ball says: That's Lou Reed on the cover. Really! He worked for Pickwick Records in the sixties. (05-23-2000) He was adding to this comment he posted previously: Peter Ball (peter@the curiosityshop.org) says: All these comments about this record, and yet nobody caught the coolest thing about it: isn't that photos of Lou Reed among the Beatle- clones on the cover? I have two Lou Reed bios that feature one of those photos! Fact is, Lou at the time was working for Pickwick Records in New York. Pickwick did ripoffs of surf, dragstrip and Brit invasion records.Hmm a Lou Reed bio with this pic? Shouldn't be too hard to find? Gary? Comments?
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 11, 2006 20:51:02 GMT -5
I just emailed'em & asked why The Pepperpots weren't on there, along with a pic of the More Mercymania cover to jog their memory.
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 12, 2006 7:33:06 GMT -5
Well at least this guy's heard of the pepperpots, so he's more of an expert than Bill Harry. Here's the Re:
Hi David
I have no info who was in the Pepperpots, I had their record for years, I wondered if they were a studio band made up to cash in on the Merseysound, because other than that I have never heard a thing about them. Do you know anything about them because if they were a real band I would love to include them in my lines ups in the future..
Cheers Arty
So I'll respond & fill him in on our silly little quest.
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Post by jerriwillmore on Sept 12, 2006 20:07:23 GMT -5
Hey, Gary you said the Pepperpots weren't from Liverpool. I could swear that in the liner notes it said they WERE!
Guess your dad and his friend were really having a practical joke.....
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Post by JoJo on Sept 12, 2006 20:28:59 GMT -5
The Lou Reed thing is something I'm looking into, there are a lot of Lou Reed bios out there, one of them may have the pic mentioned in the above post.. Got an inter-library loan request pending.
So.. let's assume for the time being one of those guys IS Lou Reed just for laughs.. Things may have taken an interesting turn in some yet to be determined way?
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Post by plastic paul on Sept 12, 2006 20:55:52 GMT -5
Which one would he be, back middle?
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Post by JoJo on Sept 12, 2006 21:14:05 GMT -5
Which one would he be, back middle? Don't know really, better to wait for further info but: From Wikipedia: In 1965, Reed moved to New York City. He began working as an in-house songwriter for Pickwick Records, where he came up with "The Ostrich," a parody of then-popular dances. His employers felt the song had hit record potential, and arranged for a band to be assembled around Reed to promote the recording. The ad hoc group, called The Primitives, included John Cale. Cale was then playing with the avant-garde composer La Monte Young, after coming to the United States from Wales to study avant garde music under Aaron Copland. Cale was surprised to find that for the would-be novelty song, Reed tuned each string of his guitar to the same note. This technique, which he referred to as ostrich guitar, created a drone effect similar to that which Cale's avant-garde ensemble was experimenting with. When Cale heard the rest of Reed's early repertoire, including "Heroin," the songs convinced him to join Reed as a collaborator.1965 might be an error here, this page has The Primitives record out in 1964: The Primitives The Ostrich / Sneaky Pete Pickwick City, PC-1001, Mono, USA, 1964
All titles composed by Reed/Sims/Vance/Philips
After the relative success of "The Ostrich", Pickwick formed a band for playing live and promote the songs in different shows. This band included John Cale.
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Post by jerriwillmore on Sept 13, 2006 13:04:06 GMT -5
Hey guys, (Gary?) it says in the liner notes that they were from Liverpool, Gary says they were not. It was an even bigger "put on" than I imagined, or what?
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Post by fourthousandholes on Sept 13, 2006 13:27:04 GMT -5
www.franklarosa.com/vinyl/Exhibit.jsp?AlbumID=69&allComments=1"George says: The Merseyside Sound? The New Beat From Britain? I've heard a few of these Beatle knock-offs, but this is probably the shoddiest. The singers don't even bother to disguise their Brooklyn accents, and I've never heard a lamer "Whoooo..." (07-28-1999)" "Wild`Bill says: Gimme the Chipmunks singing the Beatles hits! Sounds like they got a bad doo-wop vocal group to record this music. Yeah these cheapo labels desgined these albums to fool mom & dad into buying them, the kids would never buy them so a lot of them wound up at Thrift stores. PS: Anyone here has a LP by a group called "The Shakers" on Audio Fidelity? They look more hidous than these guys in Beatles wigs and they can hardly speak english. (08-16-1999) " Anyone want to check out "The Shakers"?
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Post by TotalInformation on Sept 13, 2006 20:26:38 GMT -5
Mr Shepherd, Your commitment to the facts is surely admirable, and to that end, I hope you would provide more facts as to outstanding request and perhaps some new ones, to wit: 1. Where did the name "Billy Pepper & the Pepperpots" come from? Did your father ever comment on this? 2. Are there any other albums which your father sang on? 3. Did Brian Chalmers ever confront your father directly about JPM being dead? What was his reaction? 4. Did your father ever comment on the similarity between the model pictured on the Billy Pepper cover and the model on the insert in Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band? Best, No need to get all carried away & upset.Apologies to all for sounding off - it is upsetting because this is my father you are talking about - not some character from a mystery novel. And I have told the facts - and I have no idea where else you'll get corroboration from when the main protagonists are dead. I'm not sure whether I want to get other family members involved - for some this may be a little upsetting - so unless someone stumbles on the site like I did, who will ever know? Just try and remember - this may be a big mystery to you, but to me its about real people who I knew at first hand. Have a little consideration and respect for them at least now that they are dead.
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Post by jerriwillmore on Sept 14, 2006 13:15:51 GMT -5
I think it's possibly all innocent. It is just that the coincidences are weird. If nothing else, John checked out your father's album, Gary, in the bargain bin and his beady eyes narrowed. "Sgt Pepper's lonely heart's club band!" And why didn't your dad sue for copyright violation? Maybe he was just too flattered instead? And the Beatles had been very fond of the name "Billy" too....
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