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Post by 8749 on May 6, 2009 17:35:25 GMT -5
In the Reply to RE: The Rotten Apple 2 post on the guest board, I talked about the sign-in register at the Newquay hotel when the boyz were filming MMT and how Faul gave his nationality as "Brown." The significance of "Brown" is that Gypsies are variously called brown or tawny because they were thought to come from India. One definition of tawny in the Oxford English Dictionary is a brown-skinned person. The stereotype of the Gypsy is a dark-skinned, dark-eyed person but they have married out to a certain extent, and in some of the books I've read, they have photos of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Gypsies. The Gypsies have a dividing line for their group: true Gypsies are called Romanies or Roms and out-married Gypsies are called posh-rats [half-bloods] or Didikois. Faul could be a Rom or a Didikoi.
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Post by B on May 6, 2009 19:54:23 GMT -5
Interesting: a Didikoi (a 'dead decoy') Or a Rom (Rom on!) And then there's that whole Junior "Brown" thing.... who even looks like a gypsy.  |
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Post by 8749 on May 7, 2009 17:00:55 GMT -5
Letter B, what IS "that whole Junior 'Brown' thing"? I don't know what you are referencing. But when you are thinking about brown, what about Faul as the Brown-Nosed Magician in MMT? Takes on a whole new meaning.
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Post by 8749 on May 13, 2009 17:59:09 GMT -5
I've started reading a book called Gypsy Magic A Romany Book of Spells, Charms, and Fortune-Telling by Patrinella Cooper (Weiser Books, 2002.) She was born to a traditional English Romany family and she says, "Incidentally, it's not true that all Romanies are dark and swarthy. Some of the families we know as of 'the true black blood' are blond and fair-skinned, or red-haired."
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Post by B on May 13, 2009 22:11:42 GMT -5
Letter B, what IS "that whole Junior 'Brown' thing"? I don't know what you are referencing. But when you are thinking about brown, what about Faul as the Brown-Nosed Magician in MMT? Takes on a whole new meaning. I was thinking of Junior Campbell and mixing him up with Junior Brown, who is a well-known country singer. My mistake. I wasn't firing on all cylindars when I posted that. I'm sorry. |
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Post by 8749 on Jun 26, 2009 17:43:59 GMT -5
Linda McCartney published a book in 1976, Linda's Pictures that has two interesting photos that make wry comments on her husband. One shows Faul sitting in front of a mirror with masquerade masks and fake noses on the table in front of him; and the second has Faul sitting in the driver's seat of a junk car in a seedy neighborhood of old storage buildings--a little joke about his upbringing and work as a kid. The woman had a sense of humor.
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Post by 8749 on Jul 1, 2009 17:33:18 GMT -5
I have spent about 45 minutes in a useless effort to find an audio example of the Gypsy scale. God bless my grade school music teacher for her determination to teach us the mechanics of music, but it never stuck. Knowing that there are musicians in the house, is it possible for one or more of you to upload an audio example of the following: do, re[flat], mi, fa[sharp], sol, la[flat], ti, do? It is supposed to be exactly like the Indian bhairava scale (if that helps.)
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Post by FP on Jul 1, 2009 18:05:52 GMT -5
I have spent about 45 minutes in a useless effort to find an audio example of the Gypsy scale. God bless my grade school music teacher for her determination to teach us the mechanics of music, but it never stuck. Knowing that there are musicians in the house, is it possible for one or more of you to upload an audio example of the following: do, re[flat], mi, fa[sharp], sol, la[flat], ti, do? It is supposed to be exactly like the Indian bhairava scale (if that helps.) Sharp 4 and flat 6th? Interesting. |
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Post by thisone on Jul 1, 2009 18:30:34 GMT -5
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Post by 8749 on Jul 1, 2009 18:56:32 GMT -5
Thanks, thisone. I'm guessing Faul incorporated a Gypsy tone in some of his music (yet to be looked into.) And I'm also looking into the Romany language and figuring that will show up in some of Faul's music, possibly in backmasking as far back as the post '66 Beatles.
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Post by FP on Jul 1, 2009 19:33:11 GMT -5
Thanks, thisone. I'm guessing Faul incorporated a Gypsy tone in some of his music (yet to be looked into.) I doubt it. He occasionally used modes of the major/minor scale, like Dorian mode, but none of his melodies sound dissonant enough to make you wonder if he intentionally used an 'unusual' scale. At The Mercy is as dissonant his melodies get, (if I'm not forgetting anything). If you're a musician, you can just tell that he doesn't write using scales. He's one of those people that writes melodies over chords. I strongly doubt he's ever taken the Zappa/King Crimson intellectual approach to music. |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 2, 2009 17:59:20 GMT -5
What about Ecce Cor Meum and The Liverpool Oratorio?
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Post by FP on Jul 2, 2009 20:19:09 GMT -5
What about Ecce Cor Meum and The Liverpool Oratorio? You really think he used the notes themselves as clues, waiting to be picked up by someone who thinks he's a Gypsy, who would then have to look up what a Gypsy scale is? |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 3, 2009 15:39:39 GMT -5
No, what I'm saying is that he writes what he knows. He grew up in a Romany family and his points of reference are Romany. Also, I'm figuring the older he gets, the more he relates to his Romany-ness; ethnic pride. And, also, the more successful he's gotten, the more the push from his group to help and give back to his people. If he won't admit he's Romany, at least he can show he doesn't forget where he came from and who he is.
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Post by 8749 on Jul 15, 2009 19:08:23 GMT -5
I was reading the book, Gypsies of the World by Nebojsa Bato and Rajko Djuric (1988, Henry Holt and Co.) and they have a photo of the Temple of Kali Durga (the black virgin) located in India. The caption says the black virgin is also celebrated by Gypsies in other parts of the world, as at Stes. Maries de la Mer in France. I do not have the means to upload a copy of the photo, but the interesting thing is that the temple looks just like the Helter Skelter ride that Faul based his song on. I have a link to that image www.imagesbrighton.com/picweek65.htm and I'll keep looking for a link to a photo of the temple. |
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Post by TotalInformation on Jul 15, 2009 22:58:50 GMT -5
"At the Mercy" was by Nigel Godrich and Liverpool Oratorio was by Carl Davis. There is very little useful comparison to be made here.
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Jude
Hard Day's Night 
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on Jul 21, 2009 19:31:37 GMT -5
"At the Mercy" was by Nigel Godrich and Liverpool Oratorio was by Carl Davis. There is very little useful comparison to be made here. That's very interesting. Care to prove it somehow? |
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Jude
Hard Day's Night
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on Jul 21, 2009 19:56:55 GMT -5
In the Reply to RE: The Rotten Apple 2 post on the guest board, I talked about the sign-in register at the Newquay hotel when the boyz were filming MMT and how Faul gave his nationality as "Brown." The significance of "Brown" is that Gypsies are variously called brown or tawny because they were thought to come from India. One definition of tawny in the Oxford English Dictionary is a brown-skinned person. The stereotype of the Gypsy is a dark-skinned, dark-eyed person but they have married out to a certain extent, and in some of the books I've read, they have photos of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Gypsies. The Gypsies have a dividing line for their group: true Gypsies are called Romanies or Roms and out-married Gypsies are called posh-rats [half-bloods] or Didikois. Faul could be a Rom or a Didikoi. Try as I might I could not find evidence of the word "Brown" being used as a synonym of "Romany". I'm calling your bluff. |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 22, 2009 17:24:55 GMT -5
In the Reply to RE: The Rotten Apple 2 post on the guest board, I talked about the sign-in register at the Newquay hotel when the boyz were filming MMT and how Faul gave his nationality as "Brown." The significance of "Brown" is that Gypsies are variously called brown or tawny because they were thought to come from India. One definition of tawny in the Oxford English Dictionary is a brown-skinned person. The stereotype of the Gypsy is a dark-skinned, dark-eyed person but they have married out to a certain extent, and in some of the books I've read, they have photos of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Gypsies. The Gypsies have a dividing line for their group: true Gypsies are called Romanies or Roms and out-married Gypsies are called posh-rats [half-bloods] or Didikois. Faul could be a Rom or a Didikoi. Try as I might I could not find evidence of the word "Brown" being used as a synonym of "Romany". I'm calling your bluff. From the book, The Gypsies by J.P. Clebert (1967): "A Transylvanian legend, reported by Franz de Ville, relates the birth of the first man in a more picturesque manner. One day God decided to make a man. He took a sour lime, made a statue and put it to bake in his oven. Then he went away for a walk and ended by forgetting his work. When he returned the man was burned, quite black. This was the ancestor of the Negroes. God began again but this time he was so afraid to let time slip by that he opened the oven too soon; the man was still quite pale. This was the ancestor of the Whites. God tried a third experiment, which this time succeeded; the last man was baked to a turn, well browned, a nice tan-colour. This was the ancestor of the Gypsies." I can quote more examples. |
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Post by mumrikusstarr on Jul 22, 2009 17:27:23 GMT -5
Try as I might I could not find evidence of the word "Brown" being used as a synonym of "Romany". I'm calling your bluff. From the book, The Gypsies by J.P. Clebert (1967): "A Transylvanian legend, reported by Franz de Ville, relates the birth of the first man in a more picturesque manner. One day God decided to make a man. He took a sour lime, made a statue and put it to bake in his oven. Then he went away for a walk and ended by forgetting his work. When he returned the man was burned, quite black. This was the ancestor of the Negroes. God began again but this time he was so afraid to let time slip by that he opened the oven too soon; the man was still quite pale. This was the ancestor of the Whites. God tried a third experiment, which this time succeeded; the last man was baked to a turn, well browned, a nice tan-colour. This was the ancestor of the Gypsies." I can quote more examples. And the horror continues ;D |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 22, 2009 18:44:06 GMT -5
I'm not going to get in day-by-day arguments over this. The assumption is that Faul's true identity can't be found. I think it can be and will be.
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Jude
Hard Day's Night
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on Jul 23, 2009 10:48:09 GMT -5
Try as I might I could not find evidence of the word "Brown" being used as a synonym of "Romany". I'm calling your bluff. From the book, The Gypsies by J.P. Clebert (1967): "A Transylvanian legend, reported by Franz de Ville, relates the birth of the first man in a more picturesque manner. One day God decided to make a man. He took a sour lime, made a statue and put it to bake in his oven. Then he went away for a walk and ended by forgetting his work. When he returned the man was burned, quite black. This was the ancestor of the Negroes. God began again but this time he was so afraid to let time slip by that he opened the oven too soon; the man was still quite pale. This was the ancestor of the Whites. God tried a third experiment, which this time succeeded; the last man was baked to a turn, well browned, a nice tan-colour. This was the ancestor of the Gypsies." I can quote more examples. You would make a horrible defense attorney. Why? Because you seem unable to provide evidence that actually supports your argument because you've lost track of the case as you initially presented it: In the Reply to RE: The Rotten Apple 2 post on the guest board, I talked about the sign-in register at the Newquay hotel when the boyz were filming MMT and how Faul gave his nationality as "Brown." The significance of "Brown" is that Gypsies are variously called brown or tawny because they were thought to come from India. So "Faul" wrote his nationality in the guest registry as "Brown". But in the example you provided above (you know, the one that was supposed to shoot me down for calling your bluff on "Brown" being used anywhere in the context that you think Paul used it?) is a terrible example of Brown being used as a alternative name for Gypsies! So when God attempted to bake a man for the third time man came out nice and toasty. What does that have to do with anything? What I was asking for an example of Romanies being called capital-B Brown, as in "Hey, my ethnicity is not Caucasian, it is Brown!" If this were a court of law you'd soon find there are penalties for wasting everyone's time with irrelevant "examples". |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 28, 2009 16:35:56 GMT -5
For Jude, from Romano Lavo-Lil Word-Book of the Romany or, English Gypsy Language by George Borrow (1874, 1919):
In the section, "English Gypsy Songs":
The Temesko Rye
Penn'd the temeskoe rye to the Romany chi,
As the choon was dicking prey lende dui:
Rinkeny tawni, Romany rawni,
Mook man choom teero gudo mui.
Translation:
The Youthful Earl
Said the youthful earl to the Gypsy girl,
As the moon was casting its silver shine:
Brown little lady, Egyptian lady,
Let me kiss those sweet lips of thine.
George Borrow visited a Gypsy woman in the town of Kirk Yetholm, Scotland and after convincing her that he was genuinely interested in the Gypsies, she said: "But I tell you frankly that had I not found that you knew as much as, or a great deal more than, myself, not a hundred pounds, nor indeed all the money in Berwick, should have induced me to hold discourse with you about the words and matters of the Brown [not a family name--8749] children of Kirk Yetholm."
Also, about calling Gypsies "black":
From the Word Book section:
Kaulo ratti. Black blood, Gypsy blood: kaulo ratti adrey leste, he has Gypsy blood in his veins.From the Grammar section:
"These were tatchey Romany , real Gypsies, of the old sacred black race, who never slept in a house, never entered a church, and who, on their death-beds, used to threaten their children with a curse, provided they buried them in a churchyard."
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Jude
Hard Day's Night
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on Jul 29, 2009 11:59:12 GMT -5
For Jude, from Romano Lavo-Lil Word-Book of the Romany or, English Gypsy Language by George Borrow (1874, 1919): In the section, "English Gypsy Songs": The Temesko Rye Penn'd the temeskoe rye to the Romany chi, As the choon was dicking prey lende dui: Rinkeny tawni, Romany rawni, Mook man choom teero gudo mui. Translation: The Youthful EarlSaid the youthful earl to the Gypsy girl, As the moon was casting its silver shine: Brown little lady, Egyptian lady, Let me kiss those sweet lips of thine. George Borrow visited a Gypsy woman in the town of Kirk Yetholm, Scotland and after convincing her that he was genuinely interested in the Gypsies, she said: "But I tell you frankly that had I not found that you knew as much as, or a great deal more than, myself, not a hundred pounds, nor indeed all the money in Berwick, should have induced me to hold discourse with you about the words and matters of the Brown [not a family name--8749] children of Kirk Yetholm. Also, about calling Gypsies "black": From the Word Book section: Kaulo ratti. Black blood, Gypsy blood: kaulo ratti adrey leste, he has Gypsy blood in his veins.From the Grammar section: "These were tatchey Romany , real Gypsies, of the old sacred black race, who never slept in a house, never entered a church, and who, on their death-beds, used to threaten their children with a curse, provided they buried them in a churchyard." Again, brown is being used as a color descriptor. I could just easily call myself a (captial W) White man instead of a Caucasian. Does it really matter? But in the sentence you provided, the children are being called brown---Brown children. Yet Paul wrote "Brown" as if it were his nationality, and I still don't see evidence here of Brown being used as a word that signifies the nationality of the Romanies. |
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Post by 8749 on Jul 29, 2009 18:32:14 GMT -5
My posts about Faul revealing his Romany background are to get people pointed in the right direction about finding the true identity of Replacement Paul.
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