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Post by -Wings- on Feb 6, 2010 17:45:07 GMT -5
I don't think you're gonna get anybody to go back to square one & debate the obvious. I would really appreciate, if you could do that. You can keep it short, but please, i am very interested how somebody who doesn't believe that PID, believes that he was once replaced.... What makes you think that? Happy to. There's a bounty of evidence... photos, lyrical clues, anecdotal, and logical deduction that supports the idea that there are two Pauls operating at once. The original James Paul McCartney burned out, got tired of it all, and retreated to a behind-the-scenes role while the guy I refer to as Sir Paul goes out and does the public role. Not to say that the replacement doesn't have a strong creative hand. There are periods in the discography where you can point to one or the other or both. For example, I believe most of the Wings era is solely the replacement, sans Venus and Mars (which is both). Chaos & Creation was both. Memory Almost Full was the replacement. The Fireman and Electric Arguments was the creative design of JPM. The death theory doesn't hold up after intensive scrutiny. It's fun and dangerous to suspect that at first, but it ultimately a house of cards. Don't get me wrong: I know the "Paul orchestrated his own replacement" theory sounds a bit crackers too, but nearly every aspect of his work post-1966 screams it.
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Post by revolver on Feb 6, 2010 20:54:29 GMT -5
Not to start a debate, but I don't believe JPM just retired to an island somewhere. That's not consistent with all of the planted album clues, the death rumors (that started in 1967) and the short-lived news wire stories about a fatal car crash in 1966. It just doesn't fit the facts IMO, even if it is a nicer story to believe. Plus, I hear Bill's same singing voice from the 1967 Christmas record on through his solo work. There may have been a few songs on Pepper that were JPM or an imitator, but after that it's Bill IMO.
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Post by Red Lion on Feb 6, 2010 22:02:17 GMT -5
There are plausible reasons why JPM may have wanted out. The "clues" are subjective at best and wide open to interpretation. The Beatles themselves referred to them as "rubbish."Besides the PID theory is an absolute dead end, someone would have come forth by now had he actually died, yet no one has. And as far as facts go, the only clear one is that there was at least one replacement.
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Post by eyesbleed on Feb 6, 2010 22:21:50 GMT -5
And as far as facts go, the only clear one is that there was at least one replacement. ain't that the truth! After all this time it's still a matter of who-the-hell-knows. PWR vs PID..... everybody has their reasons for one or the other. As certain as I am of my own theory, this whole thing is so strange on so many different levels that almost nothing would surprise me. And I see I agree with wings right down the line as far as where JPM shows up on "McCartney" albums.... except I'd add Ram as another album with JPM. Ram is an amazing album that just gets better with time. Nothing like any other "McCartney" album.
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Post by Paul Bearer on Feb 6, 2010 22:36:35 GMT -5
Faul has ghost writers. Most likely Elton John wrote the RAM album. Remember Elton could imitatate the Beatles style, like he deliberately did in Goodbye Yellow Brick Road.
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Post by ramone on Feb 6, 2010 23:51:56 GMT -5
Not to start a debate, but I don't believe JPM just retired to an island somewhere. That's not consistent with all of the planted album clues, the death rumors (that started in 1967) and the short-lived news wire stories about a fatal car crash in 1966. It just doesn't fit the facts IMO, even if it is a nicer story to believe. Plus, I hear Bill's same singing voice from the 1967 Christmas record on through his solo work. There may have been a few songs on Pepper that were JPM or an imitator, but after that it's Bill IMO. Yeah, I hear JPM on Pepper. Possibly all 'Paul's' songs are him. I don't really hear him after that. Mentally bringing that distinct vintage JPM voice into the picture and comparing it with post '66 stuff - it just doesn't seem a match - as you ping pong vintage and later back and forth to compare. I was listening to some early Beatle tunes yesterday and those distinct harmonies John and JP would hit at certain points. It's just not there later - and it's not just because of a different style. But, even if we say it is basically all Bill later it doesn't prove JPM couldn't be in the 'wings'.
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Post by FP on Feb 7, 2010 1:40:57 GMT -5
Faul has ghost writers. Most likely Elton John wrote the RAM album. Remember Elton could imitatate the Beatles style, like he deliberately did in Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. You think Elton John is one of the only songwriters who can imitate the Beatles style? Why can't "Faul" do it himself? To do what he does on stage, not only on bass and piano, but with his voice, takes a very talented musician. I'm a composer. I'd love for someone to point out exactly what changes in Paul's music right after Revolver. You don't hear it in Two of Us or Dig A Pony?
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Post by Red Lion on Feb 7, 2010 1:54:44 GMT -5
Why can't "Faul" do it himself? To do what he does on stage, not only on bass and piano, but with his voice, takes a very talented musician.
He does fine. Ever hear him do "Paperback Rider"??
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Post by FP on Feb 7, 2010 10:21:52 GMT -5
Why can't "Faul" do it himself? To do what he does on stage, not only on bass and piano, but with his voice, takes a very talented musician.He does fine. Ever hear him do "Paperback Rider"?? Yeah. Great bass line.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Feb 7, 2010 10:44:35 GMT -5
Although I really don't think it's this simple, here's the guy I think of as JPM: And here's the guy I think of as Bill or Billy or Mac or Buddy... The JPM image is from 1973. The Bill image is from 1976. In my opinion, the Bill version is good, but it has a slight Karaoke feel to it. Having said that however, they OBVIOUSLY look, sound, and act almost exactly alike. I'm NOT here hyperbolically suggesting that they're nothing alike, or that it's painfully obvious that they're two different people, BUT, as I've pointed out before, the noses are pretty different. P(D)
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Post by -Wings- on Feb 7, 2010 14:57:53 GMT -5
And I see I agree with wings right down the line as far as where JPM shows up on "McCartney" albums.... except I'd add Ram as another album with JPM. Ram is an amazing album that just gets better with time. Nothing like any other "McCartney" album. Oh, agreed. For what it's worth, my theory is that the McCartney album was all Sir Paul (with Junk, Teddy Boy, and Hot As Sun as unused JPM compositions, and Maybe I'm Amazed as a song written by JPM just for the project), while Ram was a Sir Paul/JPM collaboration. The advent of Wings was due to JPM going off on an extended absence again (on a sailing expedition, as numerous clues document). He came back after the success of Band On The Run for the joint, straight-down-the-middle Venus & Mars (a precursor to Chaos & Creation), and became a sort of behind-the-scenes director at this point, only resuming his songwriting with McCartney II (which spurred Lennon out of retirement). And when I say it's a JPM album or collaboration, that's not saying that the guy we're seeing on the album cover or in press material isn't Sir Paul. JPM never resumed the role in any public capacity. He successfully shedded in his own skin.
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Post by FP on Feb 7, 2010 15:22:12 GMT -5
And I see I agree with wings right down the line as far as where JPM shows up on "McCartney" albums.... except I'd add Ram as another album with JPM. Ram is an amazing album that just gets better with time. Nothing like any other "McCartney" album. Oh, agreed. For what it's worth, my theory is that the McCartney album was all Sir Paul (with Junk, Teddy Boy, and Hot As Sun as unused JPM compositions, and Maybe I'm Amazed as a song written by JPM just for the project), while Ram was a Sir Paul/JPM collaboration. The advent of Wings was due to JPM going off on an extended absence again (on a sailing expedition, as numerous clues document). He came back after the success of Band On The Run for the joint, straight-down-the-middle Venus & Mars (a precursor to Chaos & Creation), and became a sort of behind-the-scenes director at this point, only resuming his songwriting with McCartney II (which spurred Lennon out of retirement). And when I say it's a JPM album or collaboration, that's not saying that the guy we're seeing on the album cover or in press material isn't Sir Paul. JPM never resumed the role in any public capacity. He successfully shedded in his own skin. What about a song makes you decide whether it's Faul, Paul, or a collaboration?
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Post by ramone on Feb 7, 2010 20:42:24 GMT -5
PD Laine - not sure I'm getting it. "Although I really don't think it's this simple, here's the guy we think of as JPM:" I don't think I think of him that way. I see the nose thing, but they both seem 'bill' to me. Maybe the vid caught the nose in a weird way?
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Feb 7, 2010 22:43:51 GMT -5
PD Laine - not sure I'm getting it. "Although I really don't think it's this simple, here's the guy we think of as JPM:" I don't think I think of him that way. I see the nose thing, but they both seem 'bill' to me. Maybe the vid caught the nose in a weird way? ramone, I changed my sentence in the post you quoted as such: "Although I really don't think it's this simple, here's the guy I think of as JPM" So now I'm only speaking for myself. The nose is pointedly pointy through the entire 1973 Maybe I'm Amazed video, and it's not pointy at all in the 1976 version. Either way, this is exactly why I try to avoid these physical evidence threads. You look at the nose and say tomato, and I look at the nose and say tomahto. And as I've said multiple times in other threads, the PWR enigma completely transcends the fact that Paul was replaced, and I'm really not particularly interested in noses, and chins, etc. I just happened to have been watching that 1973 video this morning right before I read this thread and I had been struck by the nose, as well as the emotive quality of the vocal compared to the 1976 version. I DO like your new avatar, though. P(D)
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Post by Paul Bearer on Feb 7, 2010 23:23:14 GMT -5
IMO, the difference between the way he looked in 73 and 76 is different botox effects and/or continued surgery "enhancements".
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Post by FP on Feb 7, 2010 23:35:02 GMT -5
IMO, the difference between the way he looked in 73 and 76 is different botox effects and/or continued surgery "enhancements". Did you consider what I said about the possibility of "Faul" being a good songwriter?
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Post by Paul Bearer on Feb 8, 2010 0:12:35 GMT -5
No. His lame period during the 80s until the mid nineties may have had a lot to do with his own attempts at writing. Those songs don't have an edge.
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Post by FP on Feb 8, 2010 0:32:47 GMT -5
No. His lame period during the 80s until the mid nineties may have had a lot to do with his own attempts at writing. Those songs don't have an edge. Although I might agree, a song "having an edge" is a matter of personal opinion. In fact, most musicians or bands who came from the 60's (or early 70's) went through an awkward period when they tried to conform to an 80's sound. In their solo career, John and George wrote songs without much of an edge either. Very few pop artists are great all the time.
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Post by ramone on Feb 8, 2010 0:52:49 GMT -5
Thanks P(D) for explaining - thought I missed a thread or something.
Gort's not a great conversationalist, but he can defrost and cook an entire box of hotpockets way faster than any microwave.
And for some reason, when he's in the room, no one ever argues.
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Post by GN on Feb 8, 2010 9:48:37 GMT -5
IMO, the difference between the way he looked in 73 and 76 is different botox effects and/or continued surgery "enhancements". Right. Taken from: www.beatlesinterviews.org/db1965.0828pc.beatles.htmlI would really appreciate, if you could do that. You can keep it short, but please, i am very interested how somebody who doesn't believe that PID, believes that he was once replaced.... What makes you think that? Happy to. There's a bounty of evidence... photos, lyrical clues, anecdotal, and logical deduction that supports the idea that there are two Pauls operating at once. The original James Paul McCartney burned out, got tired of it all, and retreated to a behind-the-scenes role while the guy I refer to as Sir Paul goes out and does the public role. Not to say that the replacement doesn't have a strong creative hand. There are periods in the discography where you can point to one or the other or both. For example, I believe most of the Wings era is solely the replacement, sans Venus and Mars (which is both). Chaos & Creation was both. Memory Almost Full was the replacement. The Fireman and Electric Arguments was the creative design of JPM. The death theory doesn't hold up after intensive scrutiny. It's fun and dangerous to suspect that at first, but it ultimately a house of cards. Don't get me wrong: I know the "Paul orchestrated his own replacement" theory sounds a bit crackers too, but nearly every aspect of his work post-1966 screams it. So Sgt. Pepper took you by surprise You better see right through that mother's eyes
Those freaks was right when they said you was dead The one mistake you made was in your head Ah, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night?
You live with straights who tell you you was king Jump when your momma tell you anything The only thing you done was yesterday And since you're gone you're just another day Ah, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night?
Ah, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night?
A pretty face may last a year or two But pretty soon they'll see what you can do The sound you make is muzak to my ears You must have learned something in all those years Ah, how do you sleep? Ah, how do you sleep at night? - IMO - After putting so many clues (as he told in Glass Onion - "The Lennon Code"-) in songs this is John conclusive witness about PID Read once again that lyrics and see ALL my post here -wings- and you will see that your "theory" comes true P.S. Ringo was the first to be replaced, better "helped", by Billy Shears. Then there was Paul time. John and George had their "doubles" too. For John that meant controlling and discredit his figure.
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Post by bILL on Feb 8, 2010 10:36:31 GMT -5
Hey GN,
Did Feil Faspinall and Vivian Stanshall also have throat-implants and fake adams-apples??
;D
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Post by eyesbleed on Feb 8, 2010 22:57:11 GMT -5
Faul has ghost writers. Most likely Elton John wrote the RAM album. Remember Elton could imitate the Beatles style, like he deliberately did in Goodbye Yellow Brick Road. Well, I don't see it.... simply because I've never heard an Elton John song that I liked enough to want to hear it a second time, but Ram just keeps getting better with time... at least to my ears. I think Elton is more a candidate for Let It Be. And possibly Hey Jude & the Long & Winding Road..... never liked those 3 songs. But ya, faul has ghost writers, some albums more than others, & occasionally it's the real deal in my opinion.
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Post by FP on Feb 12, 2010 20:13:36 GMT -5
So I'm still waiting for any good arguments about musical changes in Paul's songwriting after '66. And it would be nice if it were less vague and speculative then "the real Paul wouldn't have lost his edge in the 80's".
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Post by eyesbleed on Feb 12, 2010 21:59:25 GMT -5
So I'm still waiting for any good arguments about musical changes in Paul's songwriting after '66. And it would be nice if it were less vague and speculative then "the real Paul wouldn't have lost his edge in the 80's". I'd be happy to if I had the time. It's pretty clear to my ears which albums feature JPM, but there's no time for me to discuss it right now. Of course a lot of folks here would disagree with this theory entirely coz a deadman doesn't release solo albums.
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