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Post by sandokhan on Nov 8, 2023 1:02:41 GMT -5
If you don't like my picks (as it pertains to the classical scores which were modified to create the Beatles songs), then you are going to have to find your own. The key phrase is "you are going to have to". Again, I am reminding you for the third time, that Brian Epstein called in and declared that the set of six songs was "specifically" written for the Beatles. This set included Please Please Me, Love Me Do, and PS I Love You. They were not Lennon-McCartney compositions. Who then wrote the Beatles songs? Who owned the Beatles song catalog?
If you do not like my picks, then you must find your own, and then come back and we'll compare our choices. Rest assured, that you will not be able to find better choices than mine.
I will even indicate the minutes you have to listen to, yet again:
Verdi's Triumphant March, it starts at 2:31:
They are one and the same, no matter how much you are trying to deny. Again, if you don't like my choice, then you have an obligation to find your own, come back here and we'll compare them.
Or you can accept the opinion of someone who does work in the industry:
a few days ago after reading the first comment on this thread i called my previous mentioned friend and started naming the songlist of classical music and its corresponding beatles song. i said 'aiva' etc was yellow sub. he paused for a second, i heard a few 'da da hum daaah, DEE dah da's' and then a yup or ahuh. this was the case for every song on the list.
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Post by Paul Bearer on Nov 13, 2023 1:51:50 GMT -5
I think sandokhan is just gaslighting us. Wasn't there a "Khan" on the Paul is alive forum? He was a very nasty one as I recall.
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 13, 2023 13:36:05 GMT -5
"Martin was told about Brian Epstein, who was managing a pop group that had been turned down by the majority of labels including Decca. He arranged to meet Epstein in February 1962, where he heard the Decca recordings, which he thought “unpromising”. He did, however, think well of John and Paul’s vocals. The pair met again in May at Abbey Road, where they agreed a contract without Martin having met The Beatles or seen them perform. The contract, which he felt gave him “nothing to lose”, promised The Beatles a royalty of one penny for each record sold.
George Martin agreed to sign the contract only when he had heard an audition from the band. This took place on June 6, 1962. Martin was not present at the session, but did meet the band and listened to the recordings. While he thought the band’s original songs below par, he was impressed by their wit."
Had the Beatles been the real songwriters they'd have never accepted such a lousy deal (one penny for each record). GM knew that the only useful feature was their vocals, but what they needed was an arsenal of songs.
The fact that Epstein called in to state that those six songs were written "specifically" for the Beatles, and that he did other things as well, means that he could not care less about his supposed ticket to stardom or a possible very good chance to get even richer. Again, the supposed musical output from John, 1963-1965 is without precedent in music history: as I said before, not even Mozart and Beethoven getting together to write songs for the Beatles would have been sufficient to generate that output.
In 1965, Satisfaction was voted the best song of the year (followed by Yesterday, Help, Eight Days A Week). However, in my opinion, Norwegian Wood was the best song, nothing else like it had been done before, it put an end to the careers of Dylan and the Byrds; in second place I would have We Can Work It Out. For the year 1966, Eleanor Rigby was the best song, it should have been released as a separate single, and have Yellow Submarine ready to compete with Good Vibrations later in the year (all of these songs were written by Adorno). No one else, since 1965-1966 has even come close to matching Norwegian Wood and Eleanor Rigby.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Nov 13, 2023 16:39:48 GMT -5
"Martin was told about Brian Epstein, who was managing a pop group that had been turned down by the majority of labels including Decca. He arranged to meet Epstein in February 1962, where he heard the Decca recordings, which he thought “unpromising”. He did, however, think well of John and Paul’s vocals. The pair met again in May at Abbey Road, where they agreed a contract without Martin having met The Beatles or seen them perform. The contract, which he felt gave him “nothing to lose”, promised The Beatles a royalty of one penny for each record sold. George Martin agreed to sign the contract only when he had heard an audition from the band. This took place on June 6, 1962. Martin was not present at the session, but did meet the band and listened to the recordings. While he thought the band’s original songs below par, he was impressed by their wit." Had the Beatles been the real songwriters they'd have never accepted such a lousy deal (one penny for each record). GM knew that the only useful feature was their vocals, but what they needed was an arsenal of songs. The fact that Epstein called in to state that those six songs were written "specifically" for the Beatles, and that he did other things as well, means that he could not care less about his supposed ticket to stardom or a possible very good chance to get even richer. Again, the supposed musical output from John, 1963-1965 is without precedent in music history: as I said before, not even Mozart and Beethoven getting together to write songs for the Beatles would have been sufficient to generate that output. In 1965, Satisfaction was voted the best song of the year (followed by Yesterday, Help, Eight Days A Week). However, in my opinion, Norwegian Wood was the best song, nothing else like it had been done before, it put an end to the careers of Dylan and the Byrds; in second place I would have We Can Work It Out. For the year 1966, Eleanor Rigby was the best song, it should have been released as a separate single, and have Yellow Submarine ready to compete with Good Vibrations later in the year (all of these songs were written by Adorno). No one else, since 1965-1966 has even come close to matching Norwegian Wood and Eleanor Rigby. I've already asked you this, but please provide proof that "Epstein called in to state that those six songs were written specifically for the Beatles." The link that you provided (see below) makes no claim that Epstein said any such thing. www.beatlesagain.com/breflib/pete.html#:~:text=On%20Tuesday%2C%20September%204th%2C%20The,manager%20George%20Martin%20(Parlo phone) From the link: Again, no mention of Epstein...
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 14, 2023 1:25:46 GMT -5
You are not paying attention and you are trolling this thread. You asked for the link on November 6, and I did provide it immediately, just like I did on September 27: davidabedford.com/4th-september-1962-in-beatles-history-the-fab-four-love-me-dont/Brian Epstein reported for Mersey Beat, and his story, carried anonymously at his request. He told how they had met together at Liverpool Airport at 8.15am for their flight to London. The Beatles couldn't write any songs at all, they only played cover songs. Without Adorno's songs they would have gotten nowhere. Please Please Me, Love Me Do and PS I Love You were written "specifically" for the Beatles. The Fab Four did not retract the story or complain about it. GM did nothing. By May 1963, everyone of course had forgotten this story, but it is still there in print. Since their first hit songs were not Lennon-McCartney compositions, everything else comes into question.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Nov 14, 2023 10:12:40 GMT -5
You are not paying attention and you are trolling this thread. You asked for the link on November 6, and I did provide it immediately, just like I did on September 27: davidabedford.com/4th-september-1962-in-beatles-history-the-fab-four-love-me-dont/Brian Epstein reported for Mersey Beat, and his story, carried anonymously at his request. He told how they had met together at Liverpool Airport at 8.15am for their flight to London. The Beatles couldn't write any songs at all, they only played cover songs. Without Adorno's songs they would have gotten nowhere. Please Please Me, Love Me Do and PS I Love You were written "specifically" for the Beatles. The Fab Four did not retract the story or complain about it. GM did nothing. By May 1963, everyone of course had forgotten this story, but it is still there in print. Since their first hit songs were not Lennon-McCartney compositions, everything else comes into question. Regarding the first blue highlighted section above:Ok, so David A. Bedford is the one claiming that Epstein reported for Mersey Beat and that the story was carried anonymously at his request. That's fine, I guess, as long as you believe David A. Bedford's claim... Regarding the second blue highlighted section above:But ... even if we believe that Epstein was reporting anonymously for Mersey Beat, the David A. Bedford article that you quoted DOES NOT claim that Please Please Me, Love Me Do and PS I Love You were written "specifically" for the Beatles. In fact, the David A. Bedford article that you linked to says the following about the six songs in question... So, the link that you provided as proof actually negates your claim instead. I'm not trolling. I'm simply asking you to prove claims that you can't seem to prove.
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 14, 2023 13:28:05 GMT -5
If you are not trolling, you are not paying attention, you mix up things much too easily.
We have two separate pieces of evidence: the quote from the Mersey Beat, and the identity of the person (B. Epstein) who did relate the story to the newspaper.
Did David Bedford feature the clip from the Mersey Beat? Of course not. What I needed from the link is the identity of the person who told the Mersey Beat reporter that those six songs were written "specifically" for the Beatles. What else would you expect David to say, that the Beatles did not write their own songs? It would undermine and destroy his entire project from the start.
The Mersey Beat article spells out very clearly that Please Please Me, Love Me Do, and PS I Love You were written specifically for the Beatles, i.e., they were not Lennon-McCartney compositions. There is nothing else that you can do about this, it's right there in print. What I wanted is find out who told the Mersey Beat that those songs were written by someone else, and it turned out it was Brian Epstein. Who told Epstein that the songs were written for the Beatles? Most likely George Martin.
Now, everything else is up for grabs, and comes into question. I don't have to bring here Martha by von Flotow/Martha My Dear, Fernardo Sor's guitar piece/Blackbird, Schumann's Poet's Love/And I Love Her: who wrote Please Please Me/PS I Love You/Love Me Do? Obviously, whoever did write those songs actually owned the Beatles song catalog.
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Post by joseph on Nov 15, 2023 1:28:41 GMT -5
About the author:
What kind of qualifications are those? "Trust me, I lived near 'em."
It's a 2018 book. Why should I believe anyone's stories today when there's plenty of video, film, vinyl and records from the time? I don't need any qualifications or to write a book or make a film to say, "Here's two videos/pictures/songs/performances, if you think it's the same guys in both I couldn't care less, stranger."
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 15, 2023 1:46:38 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to find out who made that call to the Mersey Beat. The only reason I did include that quote from David is so that my readers at least would know who had reported the story to the Mersey Beat publication. But we don't even need to know the identity of the caller. www.beatlesagain.com/images/pete.jpgwww.beatlesagain.com/breflib/pete.htmlwww.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/petebest3.shtml"On Tuesday, September 4th, The Beatles will fly to London to make recordings at E.M.I. Studios. They will be recording numbers that have been specifically written for the group, which they have received from their recording manager George Martin (Parlophone)." Everyone, including Epstein, Martin, the Fab Four, were satisfied with the contents of this story: Please Please Me, PS I Love You and Love Me Do were written "specifically" FOR the Beatles. Now, everything else comes into question of course: who wrote all of the other Beatles songs? Are there any classical scores which resemble these songs? Please Please Me, PS I Love You and Love Me Do were not Lennon-McCartney compositions. Anyone from Parlophone, GM himself, Epstein of course, or one of the four Beatles, could have called the Mersey Beat and have them retract the story. No one did so.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Nov 15, 2023 13:15:04 GMT -5
It doesn't take a genius to find out who made that call to the Mersey Beat. The only reason I did include that quote from David is so that my readers at least would know who had reported the story to the Mersey Beat publication. But we don't even need to know the identity of the caller. www.beatlesagain.com/images/pete.jpgwww.beatlesagain.com/breflib/pete.htmlwww.triumphpc.com/mersey-beat/a-z/petebest3.shtml"On Tuesday, September 4th, The Beatles will fly to London to make recordings at E.M.I. Studios. They will be recording numbers that have been specifically written for the group, which they have received from their recording manager George Martin (Parlophone)." Everyone, including Epstein, Martin, the Fab Four, were satisfied with the contents of this story: Please Please Me, PS I Love You and Love Me Do were written "specifically" FOR the Beatles. Now, everything else comes into question of course: who wrote all of the other Beatles songs? Are there any classical scores which resemble these songs? Please Please Me, PS I Love You and Love Me Do were not Lennon-McCartney compositions. Anyone from Parlophone, GM himself, Epstein of course, or one of the four Beatles, could have called the Mersey Beat and have them retract the story. No one did so. Thank you for finally admitting that there’s no proof that Epstein was the one who made the claim that the six songs in question were written FOR the Beatles. You could have saved both of us time and energy by admitting this last week. Having said that, I DO find it interesting that Mersey Beat made that claim, and would love to know who their source was. I don’t have a dog in this fight. In fact, I find it entirely possible that some of those early songs were written by someone other than LenMac, but I also believe that they were both writing songs from the outset.
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 15, 2023 15:59:45 GMT -5
What I said is that it doesn't take a genius (such as yourself) to find out who made that call. It didn't take long for David Bedford to find that it was Brian Epstein who was updating the Mersey Beat. Remember, the estate of Brian Epstein could sue Bedford immediately if the claim were not true, but it was. We do not need Bedford's inquiry, we can deduce ourselves that it must have been Epstein himself. Who else was so intimately connected to the Beatles? Who else, at that time, knew anything about George Martin and Parlophone, as it relates to the Beatles? You think that the Mersey Beat took prank calls, and published reports without definite proofs? Imagine the legal ramifications to claim that George Martin had provided those songs. But they only printed what Epstein had told them. George Martin did not complain, neither did anyone else. Why would the Mersey Beat risk to be put out of business, and in a very embarrassing way, given that it was well-known in Liverpool, that the Beatles played only cover songs? So, I said nothing of the kind, what you are implying. You know very well who made that call, no one else other than Epstein would have had the knowledge to provide such details.
Moreover, Epstein was the Beatles' mananger. Imagine the uproar, the complaints, the outrage that would have been shown by Epstein if the Mersey Beat had claimed something which was not true about the Beatles. Everyone in the music business/industry read the Mersey Beat. Epstein would have been the very first person to have the Mersey Beat retract that story at once. But he did not, since in fact he reported it to the newspaper.
Now, the quote states quite precisely that the songs were provided by "George Martin (Parlophone)". Was Martin a songwriter? No, he was a producer, and he was trained in classical music. Please Please Me could have been included in the West Side Story, that's how good it was. It could have been written by Gershwin. There was nothing like it in Great Britain up to that time. One of their greatest hits. Who wrote this song? Parlophone was a German company, even though in 1923 it was purchased by someone else. And the Beatles did spend time in Germany. Could it be that it was a German composer who wrote these songs? Certainly Germany had the best musical theory school in Europe at that time.
George Martin saw immediately that the Beatles' voices could be used with great success. Why wasn't Mozart alive to provide the necessary songs? Someone must have come up with the bright idea that in a way Mozart could write the songs. To modify classical scores in order to fill the Red and Blue albums with the best songs of the 20th century requires an incredible knowlegde of advanced music theory, with at least 30 years' of experience in the field.
One penny for each record? If you are writing the songs would you accept such a deal? You might as well provide the songs for free.
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Post by sandokhan on Nov 19, 2023 2:45:37 GMT -5
It is important to understand why Brian Epstein had made that call to the Mersey Beat. It is because he had to, it was his insurance policy. At the same time it was a terrible breach of protocol. Let us remember that at that time, in the early 60', there were 240 pennies to the pound sterling (not 100 like today). For the Beatles to receive one penny for each record (not even one penny for each quid from the price of the record itself) was the very worst deal possible, it cannot get any worse than that. What need would they have for a manager with a deal like that? Epstein knew that everyone in the music business in Liverpool would find out about the details of the deal, and that not only would no other group have anything to do with him, but also he would be thought of as a simpleton. Take a look at the legal language of the words used here:
"On Tuesday, September 4th, The Beatles will fly to London to make recordings at E.M.I. Studios. They will be recording numbers that have been specifically written for the group, which they have received from their recording manager George Martin (Parlophone)."
Epstein most definitely had consulted a lawyer who told him how to word the text itself, and it was read over the phone by Epstein.
That was his insurance policy. Epstein was saying: not my fault for this deal, Parlophone will provide the session players, the songs, the manufacturing of the records, the Beatles will provide the vocals, that's all. Obviously he had no idea that someone much higher than George Martin had come up with the entire project which included several years of great hits written for the Beatles. When GM saw that Epstein's legal statement was printed in the Mersey Beat, he knew that a breach of protocol had occurred: he could not call the Mersey Beat and have them retract the story, since that would have attracted unnecessary attention to the entire matter from the very start; what he could is to wait a few months and hope for the best, that everyone would forget the whole thing, which is exactly what happened.
Let us suppose that the Beatles had sold 2.4 million copies of I Want To Hold Your Hand (we are just using a ballpark figure here). At one penny for each record, that is 10,000 quid for the Beatles and 2.39 million pounds for Parlophone. 10,000/4 = 2,500 quid for each Beatle, and that's before the income tax: perhaps 125 quid per month, not bad, but you'd be better off opening a hotdog stand to receive better money.
The songs that were the supposed musical output of the Beatles, for 1963, were as good as the entire West Side Story project. Better than the soundtrack for Sound Of Music. Better than the entire musical output of someone like Prokofiev. Not even Mozart, in the interval of a single year, had composed this number of great songs. And that was just for 1963, 1964 was even better. And all of this for one penny for each record: what GM was telling the Beatles was this "you give me nothing, I'll give you nothing in return".
This is why Epstein had made that call, which otherwise could not be explained, he had even requested that his name not be mentioned, of course. He simply had no knowledge of the entire project, and badly wanted to make sure that he would not be thought of as the worst manager of the 20th century (a penny for each record).
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Nov 28, 2023 18:14:42 GMT -5
Video description: A short video on the possible role that Billy Pepper taught/played with the Beatles from the early 1960s in Hamburg.
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Post by ramone on Nov 28, 2023 21:31:25 GMT -5
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Nov 28, 2023 23:31:22 GMT -5
“You declared you would be three inches taller. You only became what we made you.” ~The Punk And The Godfather
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