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Post by cherilyn7 on Jul 16, 2013 11:50:38 GMT -5
John hadn't had any fights recently; his nose changed noticeably in a short time but not cosmetic surgery so how wud that be explained? In MMT Faul had a red blob of greasepaint on his nose: obviously to conceal the fact that the tip of the nose was different from before! They all became more "reclusive" after 1967 and it seems (they even seemed to not smile as much as before, becoming mysterious and moody a change of persona). New partners too....they became like "different people"
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Post by cherilyn7 on Jul 16, 2013 15:52:19 GMT -5
The photo of Faul & Jane in the graveyard was taken at the wedding of Paul's brother, Mike McGear circa 1968. This was the time of their "engagement" so obviously Jane knew of the switch. The graveyard photo was obviously a red herring. Engagement was Christmas 1967; did anyone see the ring? I recall seeing Faul and Jane dressed as the Pearly King and Queen at a fancy dress party in the Beatles Monthly (not sure if Christmas 66 or 67). Re previous post: it's obvious John had a double. The glasses came in useful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 19:01:25 GMT -5
The photo of Faul & Jane in the graveyard was taken at the wedding of Paul's brother, Mike McGear circa 1968. This was the time of their "engagement" so obviously Jane knew of the switch. The graveyard photo was obviously a red herring. Engagement was Christmas 1967; did anyone see the ring? I recall seeing Faul and Jane dressed as the Pearly King and Queen at a fancy dress party in the Beatles Monthly (not sure if Christmas 66 or 67). Re previous post: it's obvious John had a double. The glasses came in useful.
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Post by linus on Jul 16, 2013 21:54:10 GMT -5
Another PID paradigm I don’t get is that 'they stopped touring and became reclusive so that nobody could tell Paul had been replaced.' Though they make several film appearances with close-ups on Paul’s face: They go on satellite tv, record Hey Jude on tv, which has become one of the most popular videos of all time, film several other videos and MMT. Feature close-ups on album covers. Oh, and not to mention Pual’s constant touring over the last 40 years! Playing live in concert would’ve been the least of their worries, nobody can see them as clearly from that far away.
And if he needed red greasepaint to conceal the tip of his nose, why isn't he wearing throughout the whole film? And why did they do a close-up on him?! Wouldn't they just not have him on screen? Why bother making a film at all, if they're trying to cover things up? Besides, paint doesn't conceal the shape of one's nose.
And if John's nose changed, why didn't they perform surgery on it to make it look more like the other John's - like they allegedly did to Paul's?
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Post by superman on Jul 17, 2013 3:55:59 GMT -5
Another PID paradigm I don’t get is that 'they stopped touring and became reclusive so that nobody could tell Paul had been replaced.' Though they make several film appearances with close-ups on Paul’s face: They go on satellite tv, record Hey Jude on tv, which has become one of the most popular videos of all time, film several other videos and MMT. Feature close-ups on album covers. Oh, and not to mention Pual’s constant touring over the last 40 years!Playing live in concert would’ve been the least of their worries, nobody can see them as clearly from that far away. And if he needed red greasepaint to conceal the tip of his nose, why isn't he wearing throughout the whole film? And why did they do a close-up on him?! Wouldn't they just not have him on screen? Why bother making a film at all, if they're trying to cover things up? Besides, paint doesn't conceal the shape of one's nose. And if John's nose changed, why didn't they perform surgery on it to make it look more like the other John's - like they allegedly did to Paul's? They were mocking the fans. Blatantly. They'd show close-ups of Paul with different colored eyes, fake ears and pumped-up cheeks and, I'm guessing, laugh at how incredibly stupid the sheep-like fans were. MOST of the fans who claimed to LOVE the Beatles and were so DEVOTED to them couldn't spot the fakes even when the evidence was given zoomed-in camera close-ups. What did it say in the second chapter of The Catcher in the Rye? "People never notice anything".
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Post by linus on Jul 17, 2013 5:50:57 GMT -5
Yep. We have been presented many different combinations of eye colors, nose shapes, chin shapes, ears, eyebrow structures, molar structures, hair tints/parts/textures, head sizes, voice ranges, etc. Though I ask, how many people see that this 'mocking' had been going on long before 1967? I also ask, how does one know which are the 'fakes' and which are 'the real ones'? When did the fakes take over? Sure, some differences are more noticeable at times than others, and other times they are more subtle - they were obviously creating the PID mythos in the mid-60s - yet on the other side of the coin, what of all the uncanny similarities that also cross over between each era? “People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for.” ― Harper Lee, To Kill a Mockingbird "Im a mocker" nice earIn the Beatles cartoon for No Reply, which was produced in 1965 (aired in 1966 I believe), a master of disguise named Anyface impersonates Paul. Nobody can tell which is the real one, so the Police Chief's daughter, who is referenced as 'the world's biggest Beatles fan', is asked to settle the issue. However, even she is unable to tell the difference. I encourage serious researchers to carefully look through even just vintage magazines, using the same standards one uses when comparing their seemingly arbitrarily determined 'Pauls' and 'Fauls'. Heck, just look at the two different Pauls used in this part of the Wired article. Sure the jaw is mostly the same shape. But did they check the blatantly different eyebrows? Not that you can tell very well with that terrible lighting on the left. Why did they use such a poorly lit photo for their 'scientific' research? Is that even the same mouth, nose, ears and chin cleft? Back to the earlier topic; I suppose the other question is, were they simultaneously trying to conceal and mock? Or just one of those? Frankly, I don't see them trying to conceal anything as far as identifiable features.
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Post by cherilyn7 on Jul 17, 2013 12:47:18 GMT -5
Having decided to replace JPM of course they would continue with planned TV film etc. Instead of just wearing matching suits/matching hairstyles they were changing personas this would serve to confuse as they no longer "all looked the same" hence different "weird" clothes, change hairstyles, beards, glasses for John (red nose would serve as a divertion from other facial features as your eyes are drawn to red blob in middle of face!)
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Post by superman on Jul 17, 2013 19:09:30 GMT -5
Yep. We have been presented many different combinations of eye colors, nose shapes, chin shapes, ears, eyebrow structures, molar structures, hair tints/parts/textures, head sizes, voice ranges, etc. Though I ask, how many people see that this 'mocking' had been going on long before 1967? Not surprising that changes are seen before '67. In fact some believe the one true James Paul McCartney was gone as early as '59. The Beatles were a social engineering tool, but the fellows powering the machine loved to make fun of the fools who fell for the prefabricated image and hailed those living interchangeable props as "geniuses".
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Post by superman on Jul 17, 2013 19:21:56 GMT -5
yet on the other side of the coin, what of all the uncanny similarities that also cross over between each era? Perhaps the game is simply bigger than we ever imagined.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2013 20:05:29 GMT -5
yet on the other side of the coin, what of all the uncanny similarities that also cross over between each era? Perhaps the game is simply bigger than we ever imagined.
Oh, trust me. I imagined everything and it's small! Small!
why isn't this vid kicked off the Macca blip? BECAUSE I LIKE IT!
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 22, 2013 23:19:46 GMT -5
Honestly I do not believe Paul was replaced, it would be impossible to have someone that talks just like him, acts just like him and looks just like him (most comparison shots are not perfect as they are taken at different distances, angles and are sometimes 10+ years apart). I think the clues are pointing towards a metaphorical death and not an actual physical one and to me that suits The Beatles perfectly as most of their work is metaphorical and not straight forward.
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Post by ramone on Jul 23, 2013 0:27:40 GMT -5
Honestly I do not believe Paul was replaced, it would be impossible to have someone that talks just like him, acts just like him and looks just like him (most comparison shots are not perfect as they are taken at different distances, angles and are sometimes 10+ years apart). I think the clues are pointing towards a metaphorical death and not an actual physical one and to me that suits The Beatles perfectly as most of their work is metaphorical and not straight forward. Impossible? "Spot the difference: Felix Dadaev even fooled Stalin's closet aides Dadaev's new autobiography explains that he was one of four men employed to impersonate the supreme leader. "I had a make-up artist but he couldn't be with me all the time. So I learned to do it myself. "But my ability to copy Stalin's manners, voice and walk was far more important." Today, General Vlasik's daughter Nadezhda Nikolayevna confirms Dadaev's role. "Yes, they used doubles," she said. As it was, he was banned from seeing his relatives and bound by a non-disclosure agreement that remained in force long after Stalin died. He spent months in training, some of it under the eagle eye of Lavrenty Beria, Stalin's feared chief of secret police. He watched movies of Stalin to perfect the mimicry of his movement and intonation. By the time my make-up and training were complete, I was like him in every way, except perhaps my ears." Even his aides were fooled. "Impossible to have someone that talks just like him, acts just like him and looks just like him"?
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 23, 2013 1:04:06 GMT -5
Honestly I do not believe Paul was replaced, it would be impossible to have someone that talks just like him, acts just like him and looks just like him (most comparison shots are not perfect as they are taken at different distances, angles and are sometimes 10+ years apart). I think the clues are pointing towards a metaphorical death and not an actual physical one and to me that suits The Beatles perfectly as most of their work is metaphorical and not straight forward. Impossible? "Spot the difference: Felix Dadaev even fooled Stalin's closet aides Dadaev's new autobiography explains that he was one of four men employed to impersonate the supreme leader. "I had a make-up artist but he couldn't be with me all the time. So I learned to do it myself. "But my ability to copy Stalin's manners, voice and walk was far more important." Today, General Vlasik's daughter Nadezhda Nikolayevna confirms Dadaev's role. "Yes, they used doubles," she said. As it was, he was banned from seeing his relatives and bound by a non-disclosure agreement that remained in force long after Stalin died. He spent months in training, some of it under the eagle eye of Lavrenty Beria, Stalin's feared chief of secret police. He watched movies of Stalin to perfect the mimicry of his movement and intonation. By the time my make-up and training were complete, I was like him in every way, except perhaps my ears." Even his aides were fooled. "Impossible to have someone that talks just like him, acts just like him and looks just like him"? Why are you comparing a dictator to a musician? That's not in the same ballpark at all, heck that is a completely different sport. Plus from what you've posted it took the double months to prepare and according to the story here Paul's double had a very short time to prepare. I've seen my fair share of evidence from both sides but I honestly can't see a replacement happening, I've watched interviews of pre 66 and post 66 Paul and they have the exact same mannerisms and the exact same voice, something that just can't be replicated in just a few months. Also when it comes to dictators their doubles were usually used to fool assassins not to completely replace them. I'm sorry if i'm coming off in any negative way, that is the last thing I would want to do here as I love this site and completely respect it's members but personally I view the clues in a different perspective and after clearing any bias from either side and just taking a neutral look at the evidence I've come to the conclusion that Paul never died nor was replaced.
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Post by ramone on Jul 23, 2013 10:09:26 GMT -5
You can come to any conclusion you like.
But - 'Can't do it in just a matter of months'
Oh, I don't know about that.
"He spent months (not years) in training, some of it under the eagle eye of Lavrenty Beria, Stalin's feared chief of secret police."
And how do you know he (Faul, Bill..) didn't have enough time? He could've had more time than most of us think.
Just taking a shot in the dark, but I think you didn't really read the above info too deeply (months?).
You've missed the point.
ps which one is Stalin?
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Post by linus on Jul 23, 2013 13:37:49 GMT -5
People can come to any conclusion they like, but I still don't know how people decide for themselves which one(s) are Faul/Bill and which one(s) are the real Paul. (most comparison shots are not perfect as they are taken at different distances, angles and are sometimes 10+ years apart). In the above image from the 2008 forensic article in Italian Wired, used to establish 'the one true Paul', the two shots used are from the exact same distance, same angle and same year. They have (presumably, considering the poor lighting) the same jaw line, and presumably talk and act fairly similar, but they have glaringly different eyebrows. And depending on one's standards they arguably have slightly different noses, mouths, ears, chin clefts and hair patterns. How long did this Faul have to learn how to be the real Paul, and which is which? And how many other kinds of eyebrows, chins, ears etc. are there to be found in vintage magazines alone? And lets not forget that the forensic scientists used a stretched , or somehow otherwise unfaithful to the original, photo of “Faul” in their analysis. A photo they got from a famous PID site. If I remember correctly, it was this site: digilander.libero.it/jamespaul/fc1.htmlsnippet from Wired articleHere’s the gatefold image from the Sgt. Pepper album. (also notice the differences and similarities between this Paul and the two 1963 Pauls in the Wired image above) See how it has been stretched. Though, I myself have seen Pauls with large heads in vintage Beatlemania mags, and I'm not saying there aren't different head sizes to be found. It's just that most PIDers don't bother to look for things like that before late-66. I think the clues are pointing towards a metaphorical death and not an actual physical one and to me that suits The Beatles perfectly as most of their work is metaphorical and not straight forward. After hyperanalyzing this for over two years now, it sure seems as though it is a combination this and pid. Although if pid really happened, it must have been looong before 1966.
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 23, 2013 14:30:58 GMT -5
You can come to any conclusion you like. But - 'Can't do it in just a matter of months' Oh, I don't know about that. "He spent months (not years) in training, some of it under the eagle eye of Lavrenty Beria, Stalin's feared chief of secret police." And how do you know he (Faul, Bill..) didn't have enough time? He could've had more time than most of us think. Just taking a shot in the dark, but I think you didn't really read the above info too deeply (months?). You've missed the point. ps which one is Stalin? No I got the point you're trying to make but it doesn't prove Paul was replaced at all, it just proves that Stalin had a double that was trained not to replace him permanently but just for a few appearances. I've had pictures taken of me that were just a few years apart and I could of sworn that they were 2 different people. Again most Paul/Faul comparison pictures are faulty, one picture is usually in a lower quality than the other,they are taken at different angles, they are sometimes taken +10 years apart and they have different lighting. Heck with Stalin's double you still saw obvious differences. Also try to look at this in the most logical way possible, how would they be able to find an exact double in such a short time frame? So the last known photographed appearance of the real Paul was in August 1966, Paul's supposed demise was on November 9th 1966. The next time he is interviewed is in December 20th 1966 and to me that is 100% Paul in that interview, the double would have less than a month to perfectly look like Paul and mimic Paul's voice and actions in order to pull off that interview. Either there was no double or the date is completely off and than again I think everyone here is sure that the Paul we saw in August was the real one so that would give the double a VERY short time frame to train. You also have to think about how long it would take to find a double that good, giving him an even shorter time frame. I just don't see it happening at all and if you can offer me something beyond the well known fact that political figures used body doubles only meant to fool assassins than I would happily change my mind and come on over to the PID side but as of yet you really haven't shown anything. Also, the right one is Stalin
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Post by ramone on Jul 23, 2013 20:03:07 GMT -5
'if you can offer me something beyond the well known fact that political figures used body doubles "only" meant to fool assassins than I would happily change my mind and come on over to the PID side but as of yet you really haven't shown anything.'
That's what I meant by not really reading.
One would assume that 'his closest aides' would be guys that most likely would have close contact. So, if he could fool them well….
I think you stating things in absolutes indicates a perhaps myopic view of things.
It's IMPOSSIBLE to do it in just months... (wrong) Used body doubles ONLY meant to fool assassins… (wrong)
Sometimes doing that can close one's mind to a different possibility or combination of them.
It could get to the point that if Ringo himself said - 'yeah, we replaced Paulie' a person could say - 'I don't believe it, not gonna shake my bubble. I mean Paul hasn't said anything yet, so…'
Not saying this is you Nicolita, but with some, if shaking isn't allowed, it won't matter what kind of evidence is there.
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Post by beatlas231 on Jul 23, 2013 20:13:27 GMT -5
'if you can offer me something beyond the well known fact that political figures used body doubles "only" meant to fool assassins than I would happily change my mind and come on over to the PID side but as of yet you really haven't shown anything.' That's what I meant by not really reading. One would assume that 'his closest aides' would be guys that most likely would have close contact. So, if he could fool them well…. I think you stating things in absolutes indicates a perhaps myopic view of things. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do it in just months... (wrong) Used body doubles ONLY meant to fool assassins… (wrong) Sometimes doing that can close one's mind to a different possibility or combination of them. It could get to the point that if Ringo himself said - 'yeah, we replaced Paulie' a person could say - 'I don't believe it, not gonna shake my bubble. I mean Paul hasn't said anything yet, so…' Not saying this is you Nicolita, but with some, if shaking isn't allowed, it won't matter what kind of evidence is there. Well technically Ringo already said something like that lol. Speaking of which, does anyone know where that clip of him saying there's a clone came from? He doesn't have ties with Martin, I don't think.. Or does he?
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 23, 2013 20:42:41 GMT -5
'if you can offer me something beyond the well known fact that political figures used body doubles "only" meant to fool assassins than I would happily change my mind and come on over to the PID side but as of yet you really haven't shown anything.' That's what I meant by not really reading. One would assume that 'his closest aides' would be guys that most likely would have close contact. So, if he could fool them well…. I think you stating things in absolutes indicates a perhaps myopic view of things. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do it in just months... (wrong) Used body doubles ONLY meant to fool assassins… (wrong) Sometimes doing that can close one's mind to a different possibility or combination of them. It could get to the point that if Ringo himself said - 'yeah, we replaced Paulie' a person could say - 'I don't believe it, not gonna shake my bubble. I mean Paul hasn't said anything yet, so…' Not saying this is you Nicolita, but with some, if shaking isn't allowed, it won't matter what kind of evidence is there. Alright I see what you're trying to say but honestly we are talking about two completely different situations. On one hand we had one of multiple doubles for a dictator that was only used to fool people from afar and even if it says he fooled his closest aides I'm willing to bet that was on the first encounter, I'm sure his closest aides knew of the doubles. On the other hand we have a double for a world famous musician who had a unique look, personality and voice and that double was able to perfect all of that in for all we know less than a month. Also, YOU are wrong when you called me out for saying the doubles were only meant to fool assassins as that is EXACTLY what Stalin had doubles for, did you not even read your own article? It states multiple times that Stalin feared for his life and that is the exact reason he used doubles, he never had his doubles live in his house, play in his band, go out with his girlfriend or be with his family. Also I have an extremely open mind and that is the exact reason why I can not accept this theory that is based on an inconsistent story, non-existent or very vague evidence and comparisons that are not exact or even worse doctored. By the way, if Ringo were to come out and confirm that the PID theory is in fact true than I will be one of the first to admit I was completely wrong but as of yet it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon.
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Post by beatlas231 on Jul 23, 2013 22:19:03 GMT -5
'if you can offer me something beyond the well known fact that political figures used body doubles "only" meant to fool assassins than I would happily change my mind and come on over to the PID side but as of yet you really haven't shown anything.' That's what I meant by not really reading. One would assume that 'his closest aides' would be guys that most likely would have close contact. So, if he could fool them well…. I think you stating things in absolutes indicates a perhaps myopic view of things. It's IMPOSSIBLE to do it in just months... (wrong) Used body doubles ONLY meant to fool assassins… (wrong) Sometimes doing that can close one's mind to a different possibility or combination of them. It could get to the point that if Ringo himself said - 'yeah, we replaced Paulie' a person could say - 'I don't believe it, not gonna shake my bubble. I mean Paul hasn't said anything yet, so…' Not saying this is you Nicolita, but with some, if shaking isn't allowed, it won't matter what kind of evidence is there. Alright I see what you're trying to say but honestly we are talking about two completely different situations. On one hand we had one of multiple doubles for a dictator that was only used to fool people from afar and even if it says he fooled his closest aides I'm willing to bet that was on the first encounter, I'm sure his closest aides knew of the doubles. On the other hand we have a double for a world famous musician who had a unique look, personality and voice and that double was able to perfect all of that in for all we know less than a month. Also, YOU are wrong when you called me out for saying the doubles were only meant to fool assassins as that is EXACTLY what Stalin had doubles for, did you not even read your own article? It states multiple times that Stalin feared for his life and that is the exact reason he used doubles, he never had his doubles live in his house, play in his band, go out with his girlfriend or be with his family. Also I have an extremely open mind and that is the exact reason why I can not accept this theory that is based on an inconsistent story, non-existent or very vague evidence and comparisons that are not exact or even worse doctored. By the way, if Ringo were to come out and confirm that the PID theory is in fact true than I will be one of the first to admit I was completely wrong but as of yet it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon. Lol are you sure you're only 15?
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 23, 2013 22:42:13 GMT -5
Alright I see what you're trying to say but honestly we are talking about two completely different situations. On one hand we had one of multiple doubles for a dictator that was only used to fool people from afar and even if it says he fooled his closest aides I'm willing to bet that was on the first encounter, I'm sure his closest aides knew of the doubles. On the other hand we have a double for a world famous musician who had a unique look, personality and voice and that double was able to perfect all of that in for all we know less than a month. Also, YOU are wrong when you called me out for saying the doubles were only meant to fool assassins as that is EXACTLY what Stalin had doubles for, did you not even read your own article? It states multiple times that Stalin feared for his life and that is the exact reason he used doubles, he never had his doubles live in his house, play in his band, go out with his girlfriend or be with his family. Also I have an extremely open mind and that is the exact reason why I can not accept this theory that is based on an inconsistent story, non-existent or very vague evidence and comparisons that are not exact or even worse doctored. By the way, if Ringo were to come out and confirm that the PID theory is in fact true than I will be one of the first to admit I was completely wrong but as of yet it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon. Lol are you sure you're only 15? Last time I checked I was born on September 10th, 1997 I've also been interested in the Beatles since I was about 5 and have been researching the myth off and on for about 4 years. Should I be out playing football instead?
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Post by beatlas231 on Jul 23, 2013 23:10:41 GMT -5
Lol are you sure you're only 15? Last time I checked I was born on September 10th, 1997 I've also been interested in the Beatles since I was about 5 and have been researching the myth off and on for about 4 years. Should I be out playing football instead? Well, yeah but... To be 15 and know that much about Stalin is beyond me. ... unless of course my teachers just sucked that much growing up.
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Post by littlenicola on Jul 23, 2013 23:18:14 GMT -5
Last time I checked I was born on September 10th, 1997 I've also been interested in the Beatles since I was about 5 and have been researching the myth off and on for about 4 years. Should I be out playing football instead? Well, yeah but... To be 15 and know that much about Stalin is beyond me. ... unless of course my teachers just sucked that much growing up. Haha, well pretty much everything I know about Stalin comes from my history classes in school and WW2 documentaries i watch every once in a while. I'm a bit of a history geek so I know a little here and there but honestly everything I said came straight out of the article, it clearly stated he used doubles out of his own paranoia. Anyways I'm sorry if I caused us to go a bit off-topic and turn this into a Stalin/Ftalin thread lol.
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Post by linus on Jul 24, 2013 0:59:21 GMT -5
So the last known photographed appearance of the real Paul was in August 1966, Paul's supposed demise was on November 9th 1966. ...Either there was no double or the date is completely off And how do you know he (Faul, Bill..) didn't have enough time? He could've had more time than most of us think. "Thank you Paul, that was just like him." - John Lennon, August 14th, 1965. Ed Sullivan Show You know... the one with the large head, fake-looking ears with detached lobes, cocky attitude, but still uncannily similar to any other Paul. (does this Paul match any of the Pauls in the Wired article?) invanddis.proboards.com/thread/5735/finally?page=7
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Post by cherilyn7 on Jul 25, 2013 19:02:14 GMT -5
It would not have been done in "less than a month"; the Beatles as with other celebrities and public figures had "doubles" and "stand ins"; this was pre 1966. They would have been exhausted to do all the appearances as well as the recording and songwriting, so they would use doubles who could wear a wig and look like them. Not hard, there are many people out there who resemble celebrities. If you are not looking for something, you won't find it.
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