Jude
Hard Day's Night
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on May 8, 2009 19:12:06 GMT -5
And it's fine that you think that. That's why I call it a theory---it hasn't been proven, and if someone thinks otherwise, who am I to say "You're wrong, I'm right, John is alive". All the same, it would be nice to hear why you find the idea that John staged his own death so improbable.
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Post by JoJo on May 8, 2009 20:27:57 GMT -5
And it's fine that you think that. That's why I call it a theory---it hasn't been proven, and if someone thinks otherwise, who am I to say "You're wrong, I'm right, John is alive". All the same, it would be nice to hear why you find the idea that John staged his own death so improbable. Well it would make a great movie plot.. Famous rock star learns through insiders of his imminent assassination with mind controlled stooge as the purported shooter, but with the real assassin hidden in the shadows. But wait, the guy who is supposed to really do the hit is really working for the rock star. Well that's how it would have to have gone down.. I'm of the opinion that the official story is a lie, and the real killer was upstream from the gate, and hey I'd love it (the John is alive scenario) to be true.. I'll keep the possibility door open just a crack just because..
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Jude
Hard Day's Night
Acting Naturally
Posts: 34
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Post by Jude on May 9, 2009 8:58:23 GMT -5
And it's fine that you think that. That's why I call it a theory---it hasn't been proven, and if someone thinks otherwise, who am I to say "You're wrong, I'm right, John is alive". All the same, it would be nice to hear why you find the idea that John staged his own death so improbable. Well it would make a great movie plot.. Famous rock star learns through insiders of his imminent assassination with mind controlled stooge as the purported shooter, but with the real assassin hidden in the shadows. But wait, the guy who is supposed to really do the hit is really working for the rock star. Well that's how it would have to have gone down.. I'm of the opinion that the official story is a lie, and the real killer was upstream from the gate, and hey I'd love it (the John is alive scenario) to be true.. I'll keep the possibility door open just a crack just because.. Nobody Loves You (When You're Down And Out)John Lennon Nobody loves you when you're down and out Nobody sees you when you're on cloud nine Everybody's hustlin' for a buck and a dime I'll scratch your back and you scratch mine
I've been across to the other side I've shown you everything, I got nothing to hide And still you ask me do I love you, what it is, what it is All I can tell you is it's all show biz All I can tell you is it's all show biz
Nobody loves you when you're down and out Nobody knows you when you're on cloud nine Everybody's hustlin' for a buck and a dime I'll scratch your back and you knife mine
I've been across the water now so many times I've seen the one eyed witchdoctor leading the blind And still you ask me do I love you, what you say, what you say Everytime I put my finger on it, it slips away Everytime I put my finger on it, it slips away
Well I get up in the morning and I'm looking in the mirror to see, ooo wee! Then I'm lying in the darkness and I know I can't get to sleep, ooo wee!
Nobody loves you when you're old and grey Nobody needs you when you're upside down Everybody's hollerin' 'bout their own birthday Everybody loves you when you're six foot in the ground[/b] It seems to me that John wasn't very comfortable with the idea of becoming an old hippie rock star a la Bob Dylan. When you're living the high life of a world famous rock star, no one really loves you, and most people who get close to you are only after your money. And then as you get older, you lose your relevance and become just another washed out superstar. And as much as you still want to make a difference, nothing you do really matters to people anymore. But everyone loves you when you're six foot in the ground.
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Post by Don McLean on May 9, 2009 9:57:48 GMT -5
When the jester sang for the king and queen
In a coat he borrowed from James Dean
And a voice that came from you and me
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Post by 8749 on May 11, 2009 14:34:50 GMT -5
I don't think John staged his death because he didn't have to. He had all the money he needed ("Everyone of us has all we need. . . .") I'm guessing he dropped out of The Beatles voluntarily, unlike Paul who I think was forced out. My theory is that he stayed in the background with Fohn doing his John impression until the mid '70's. I think he decided to get back into music, got Fohn to step aside, and got "taken out" permanently. Remember, the killer's wife knew Yoko. Hint.
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Post by JoJo on May 11, 2009 17:29:43 GMT -5
Remember, the killer's wife knew Yoko. Hint. Well, she was Japanese and MDC married her it is said because of his obsession to be "like John". But where did you hear this may I ask? That's a new one on me.
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Post by 8749 on May 12, 2009 16:01:26 GMT -5
Yoko knowing the killer's wife was in one of the newsmagazines, Time or Newsweek. I'll track it down. It's one of those things that stick in your mind when you read it because it's odd. Another odd thing: Does it strike anybody as odd that Chapman would sign his work log "John Lennon", knowing that it would be found, featured, and analyzed in the news reports? They were all over that like white on rice.
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Post by JoJo on May 12, 2009 19:42:06 GMT -5
8749, I would really appreciate if you would, that's not at all a trivial thing. If it's Time or Newsweek, the article would be indexed in the guide to periodicals, but do you have a rough idea of the time frame? I'm assuming it was an article about John's murder? A researcher friend of mind would probably find this helpful, thanks.
Going to motivation is tough, who knows but.. I can tell you the interpretation real easy.. That Chapman was looking for fame, and this was a small detail in his plan for same.
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Post by 8749 on May 13, 2009 18:15:47 GMT -5
I looked at the articles Time and Newsweek had right after John's killing (both issues are December 22, 1980) and I didn't find the "Chapman's wife as friend of Yoko Ono" statement in either. But I DID read that somewhere and I'm sure it was in a newsmagazine; I'll keep looking. Rereading those articles, I was again impressed by the "push the news media's buttons" sense of it. I agree with Jude that it was a conspiracy, but I don't think it is the one he thinks it is. "They" knew if they could cast Chapman as a crazed loner with a gun, the news media would run with that, and not ask, as they say, the tough questions. Time was a little incredulous on how a security guard could afford an apartment in a Honolulu high-rise and money to buy Salvador Dali and Norman Rockwell artwork, but the media never took the investigation any further.
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Post by JoJo on May 13, 2009 20:23:43 GMT -5
I looked at the articles Time and Newsweek had right after John's killing (both issues are December 22, 1980) and I didn't find the "Chapman's wife as friend of Yoko Ono" statement in either. But I DID read that somewhere and I'm sure it was in a newsmagazine; I'll keep looking. Rereading those articles, I was again impressed by the "push the news media's buttons" sense of it. I agree with Jude that it was a conspiracy, but I don't think it is the one he thinks it is. "They" knew if they could cast Chapman as a crazed loner with a gun, the news media would run with that, and not ask, as they say, the tough questions. Time was a little incredulous on how a security guard could afford an apartment in a Honolulu high-rise and money to buy Salvador Dali and Norman Rockwell artwork, but the media never took the investigation any further. I'm a bit incredulous about that myself! I'll have to visit the microfilm room, nice tidbit even if they didn't pursue.. Funny, the crazed lone gunman was always a nice reliable way to dispense with a "problem". Notice how political figures aren't taken out that way anymore? Guess it's too cliche, like people would mistrust the tale immediately. Much like JFK, there was a "magic bullet".
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Post by JoJo on May 14, 2009 17:23:56 GMT -5
I re-read the chapters regarding the murder in Albert Goldman's book, and the ritzy digs/artwork is explained by Chapman's wife Gloria Abe, who was the daughter of a rich Japanese baker. Yoko's family was wealthy too, maybe it's possible they crossed paths. Also have to wonder if Yoko and Gloria became friendly after, seems odd, but there could be the thing where they share a loss tied to the same event. Dunno..
Interestingly, John was talking to someone in the studio the night of the murder, saying that he "was on borrowed time", and that after his death his legend would grow like Elvis.
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Post by 8749 on May 14, 2009 18:08:53 GMT -5
But Gloria Abe was working as a travel agent, according to a couple of articles I read. Chapman, they say, met her when she booked his around the world tour that was supposedly bankrolled by his father. Borrowed money for a ritzy lifestyle abounded. I can't find the article linking Ono with Abe but, believe me, I read it. I thought it was common knowledge and now I'm going to have to spend time tracking it down.
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Post by JoJo on May 14, 2009 19:43:26 GMT -5
The travel agent story is supported by the Goldman book as well. It also said the Dali painting was bought with money given by his father in law. I agree all this money flying around is odd, he was a pretty lucky guy all things considered. I've had that happen, reading something then not being able to track it down.. Drives ya crazy, eh? About Goldman's book, there are issues, and of course many Lennon fans were angry about what they perceived as an airing of dirty laundry, many accused him of being loose with the facts. A couple of things bothered me about the MDC chapters.. First, he claims that Gloria "had nothing to worry about on his second trip as he had thrown the gun and bullets into the ocean". (implying that she had witnessed it, but not explicitly saying so) Then he describes Chapman shooting the very same gun without explaining how that jives the previous statement. Second, he talks about how he got hollow point bullets from his cop friend in Georgia, describing how they are designed to break up upon impact, and then describes the actual injuries in a way that is inconsistent with the description of those type of bullets without any comment on the discrepancy. Sloppy...
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Post by 8749 on May 15, 2009 17:12:48 GMT -5
My point is, is that all that money flying around started when he moved to Hawaii in 1977. They mention the Dali and Rockwell works specifically, but the Time article says, generally, that he bought expensive works. He wasn't buying them to sell them at a profit, he was collecting them. Follow the money, but no one did.
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Post by JoJo on May 15, 2009 17:56:21 GMT -5
You can solve any mystery by following the $$$, but of course that isn't always so easy.. People tend to keep those transactions as secret as possible.
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Post by 8749 on May 18, 2009 18:06:57 GMT -5
Investigative reporters have solved tougher mysteries. And it's my feeling from reading about the English love of secrecy that anything that happened to John Lennon in THIS country might be easier to uncover than what happened to Paul in England.
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Post by GN on May 20, 2009 15:37:33 GMT -5
I haven't been able to find the identity of Faul/Macca yet, but I've been doing research on his background. Everyone will agree (yes?) that Faul took over the show from 1967-on. The Sgt. Pepper and MMT albums and videos are Faul's babies. A lot of info has been coming out from the 1970's-on that wasn't recognizable to most people at the time the albums were made. I'll have it all put together in a couple of weeks, but the document that pointed the way was the The Making of The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour by Tony Barrow (1999, Omnibus.) He has an actual page from the sign-in register of September 12, 1967 from the Atlantic Hotel in Newquay that the Beatles (and Featles) stayed at when they were filming MMT. Faul gives his address as "Hungry Hall. Herts." That's Hertfordshire. He gives his nationality as "Brown." Faul has an Anglo-Romany (Gypsy) background. It's unmistakable, it all fits, and I'll document it all for youse, if you want. You are getting closer
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Post by 8749 on May 20, 2009 18:38:48 GMT -5
Maybe Pearl Witherington is a relative of Faul.
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Post by GN on May 21, 2009 17:20:11 GMT -5
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Post by DarkHorse on May 21, 2009 18:01:51 GMT -5
Yeah, 65if2007, I DO think there was a Featle John. I talked about a November, 1980 Esquire article in the Lilley's Isolation Tank post on the guest board. It's a wonderful article; I recommend it. He went down to Palm Beach in 1980 looking for John and said people saw him on the street but that "there was something slightly spooky about these Lennon sightings, though: the man never looked the same twice." He said different people said Lennon looked like: Sigmund Freud, Henri Matisse, a scraggly Prince Charles, and a Mennonite rabbi (sic). I think John definitely had one or more look-alike stand ins. Today is the first day I've seen this thread. I've been doing some research of my own of late on John having doubles and actually him living past 1980. John Faux John(supposedly 40 in this pic-or even younger...with the longer nose and smaller chin) Links to the threads at Paul is Dead Miss Him Miss Himonly1rad.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=leader&action=display&thread=1359&page=1only1rad.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=leader&action=display&thread=22&page=2
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Post by Doc on May 23, 2009 19:35:00 GMT -5
Sorry, no offense, but in this picture of John, this man looks 50 years old at least, if not 53, 54. Either hard drugs or hard living too.
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Post by Doc on May 23, 2009 19:36:43 GMT -5
I'll track down documentation on his family in time. What exactly ARE the facial features of a Gypsy? As I said in the "Paul is Brown" thread on the Replacement forum, I have seen photos of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Roms. His accent slides around: listen through the McCartney Interview 1980 in JoJo's "Shoebox." There are Gypsies who are VERY musical. Listen to www.gypsyradio.com for some modern musical Gypsies. And how many times have we been through the documentation of altered music tracks to prove that recorded music is often manipulated and musician credits do not always credit the musician who actually played on the tracks? If you love Faul's music, fine, but Faul is not Paul. Roma and his horse www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IDRTVHXvJMI dunno. James Paul was dark. Maybe he was a Roma, or an Irish traveller Gypsy. Thru his mother's side.
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Post by Doc on May 24, 2009 1:19:42 GMT -5
This line of inquiry isn't as preposterous as it may sound to some. See below: If it's a possibility for Denny Laine......
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Post by Doc on May 24, 2009 1:25:11 GMT -5
Sir Paul is, in fact, a gypsy. Read Barry Miles' book, PAUL MCCARTNEY: MANY YEARS FROM NOW. He did a series of interviews with him and it is, basically, a 62 year-old man, reminising. I was reading Paul's interview in THE BEATLES ANTHOLOGY and the only "work" he did as a kid was helping out behind the bar at McCartney New Year's Eve parties. He talked about doing chores after his mother died: "Now Mum was gone there were chores to be done: I had to do the fire and a bit of cleaning. But we also made a point of playing out, too. . . . I learnt to cook some things." NO work outside the home. Contrast that with the Miles interview where Sir Paul was complaining about having to go door to door, collecting "jam jars" and enduring the abuse of householders. Check YouTube. Type in gypsy and scrap and you will find what Sir Paul was doing as a child. He's a Gypsy. He was a gypsy by trade perhaps, but not a Gypsy. I don't know how else to put this, but he does not have the facial features of a Gypsy and he is far too white. And I find it difficult to believe that they would just hire someone from an entirely different ethnicity to be Paul McCartney, and that he would that great of a job of it. His accent is impeccable, his bass playing remarkable, and he has been known to record entire albums by himself. He is clearly someone with a very musical background, not the background of a scrounger. It's amazing what details people will outright ignore... Ricki Lee Jones is pretty white. And do we worry that Elvis might have been a .... scrounger?
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Post by Doc on May 24, 2009 1:28:50 GMT -5
I found somewhere, also, that Smith is one of the most common names that Romani people assumed in England and Germany. Well, it's a common name, but it is also a translation of their own common version of it, well I guess that follows form the idea of there being so many tinsmith's, etc, but, well....
My mother's maiden name was Smith....... and I have hit a major dead end in the genealogy.....
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