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Post by keytothetruth on May 23, 2024 10:51:00 GMT -5
That’s very much how I feel about it now. I used to believe Paul died but it doesn’t make that much sense to me anymore. Replaced? Well, maybe.
A while ago someone left an interesting comment under one of the videos on the Silly Willy Shepherd channel comparing the Beatles mystery to Cicada 3301 and Pink Floyd’s Publius Enigma and here’s what Kenny Milne, a person who seems to know a thing or two about it , answered: “ I do thought take your point on the Internet mysteries you mentioned. Whilst maybe not in that vein, there is a similarity in that there is layers of info to get through. To really get down through this rabbit hole, you need to have good info on what John and Paul were into back in the mid 60s. Their interests, fascinations, motivations etc.” Apollo too kept saying there were layers of info that needed to be peeled off in order to get the whole picture. It’s a curious remark about their fascinations and what they were into in the mid 60s though. Crowley? LSD and other psychedelics (George: “ It changed me, and there was no way back to what I was before. It transforms you”. Paul / Bill: “ You ask yourself, ‘How do you come back from it? How do you then lead a normal life after that?’ And the answer is, you don’t.”)? Timothy Leary? The Tibetan Book of the Dead? Did they create this proto ARG based on all of that? [/quote]
I used to believe he was replaced too, but I realized a lot of the apparent physical changes PIDers point to aren’t actually real. If you look at good comparisons, it’s pretty obvious it’s the same guy. I think Paul maybe did have doubles he sometimes used, but I don’t think he was ever permanently replaced.
But this mystery does go really deep, and I do think Cicada 3301 is a good comparison. To me this is the goal of analyzing all this, to see what the purpose is supposed to be. That’s definitely an interesting theory that this could be related to LSD. The guy in the Billy And Me video brought up how he believes the clues are about Paul going through some type of spiritual transformation, and maybe this happened after he took LSD, which he was apparently initially reluctant to do.
I think Mal probably revealed the truth to all this in his diary, which he was planning on publishing, but then was killed by a police officer after apparently having a mental breakdown while being armed, which seems pretty contrived. Not sure what happened to his diary, it was probably destroyed. I don’t know how people feel about the page of it you couldn’t really read that was in The Winged Beatle, but that seems kind of fake to me, but maybe IAAP does have access to it but can’t release it for safety reasons.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 15, 2024 9:13:10 GMT -5
>>> But this mystery does go really deep, and I do think Cicada 3301 is a good comparison. To me this is the goal of analyzing all this, to see what the purpose is supposed to be. That’s definitely an interesting theory that this could be related to LSD. The guy in the Billy And Me video brought up how he believes the clues are about Paul going through some type of spiritual transformation, and maybe this happened after he took LSD, which he was apparently initially reluctant to do.>>>
That’s my feeling too, regardless of the replacement thing being real or not. I thought of LSD because of these quotes from Paul (?) and George I posted above, they talk about “ change”, “transformation”, “ no way back to what I was before”, ‘How do you come back from it? And the answer is, you don’t.” If you compare this to Leary’s ideas (“Psychedelic Experience “), he uses some very similar imagery, death and rebirth as a metaphor for “ego death” that one’s supposed to experience during the psychedelic “journey” under the influence of LSD and similar substances. Given John’s interest in Leary’s book and The Bardo Thodol, this makes some sense. They were no longer The Beatles, the cute mop tops everyone adored, hence the Sgt Pepper cover representing the funeral - goodbye, the Beatles, hello Sgt Pepper’s Band - but maybe they wanted to go further than that and hint at them no longer being John , Paul, George and Ringo as we’d known them, maybe after the “ego death” experience (or whatever we might call it) they felt they were somehow different spiritually, like they’d shedded their skin, something like that. As George put it,
“It was like opening the door, really, and before, you didn’t even know there was a door there. It just opened up this whole other consciousness, even if it was down to, like Aldous Huxley said, the wonderful folds in his gray flannel trousers. Although it was like a key that opened the door and showed a lot of things on the other side, it’s still up to people themselves what they do with it. LSD isn’t a real answer. It enables you to see a lot of possibilities that you may never have noticed before but it isn’t the answer. You don’t just take LSD and that’s it forever, you’re OK. That was the great thing about John and what I got from him, from all those years. He saw that we are not just in the material world; he saw beyond death, that this life is just a little play that is going on. And he understood that.”
I don’t really know if it’s relevant to this mystery. I feel it is; but just like everyone else I’m just thinking loud lol.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 15, 2024 9:44:15 GMT -5
And also these quotes by Paul (Bill?) and George are interesting:
George: “After taking acid together, John and I had a very interesting relationship. John and I spent a lot of time together from then on and I felt closer to him than all the others, right through until his death. As Yoko came into the picture, I lost a lot of personal contact with John; but on the odd occasion I did see him, just by the look in his eyes, I felt we were connected. John and I had decided that Paul and Ringo had to have acid because we couldn’t relate to them anymore. Not just on the one level – we couldn’t relate to them on any level, because acid had changed us so much. It was such a mammoth experience that it was unexplainable. It was something that had to be experienced, because you could spend the rest of your life trying to explain what it made you feel and think. It was all too important to John and me.”
Paul: “And we looked into each other’s eyes (John and him), the eye contact thing we used to do, which is fairly mind-boggling. You dissolve into each other. But that’s what we did, round about that time, that’s what we did a lot. And it was amazing. You’re looking into each other’s eyes and you would want to look away, but you wouldn’t, and you could see yourself in the other person. It was a very freaky experience and I was totally blown away.
There’s something disturbing about it. You ask yourself, ‘How do you come back from it? How do you then lead a normal life after that?’ And the answer is, you don’t. After that you’ve got to get trepanned or you’ve got to meditate for the rest of your life. You’ve got to make a decision which way you’re going to go.
It alters your life and you never think the same again. John was rather excited by that prospect. I was rather frightened by that prospect. . . never get back home again.
(LSD) opened my eyes to the fact that there is a God… It is obvious that God isn’t in a pill, but it explained the mystery of life. It was truly a religious experience. It started to find its way into everything we did, really. It colored our perceptions. I think we started to realize there wasn’t as many frontiers as we’d thought there were. And we realized we could break barriers.”
So obviously it had a very profound effect on them, not the drug but what it led them to, what doors it opened; so maybe they wanted us to follow them, not necessarily in terms of using psychedelics - as George said,” it transforms you. After that, I didn’t need it ever again. That’s the thing about LSD: you don’t need it twice. There are special ways of getting high without drugs—with yoga, meditation and all those things” - but more in a spiritual sense. Like I said, I’m not sure how relevant these things are to the mystery itself but at least I feel their experience with psychedelics and especially where it led them to (and possibly where they wanted us to go too) is worth exploring. I’d even suggest “Paul is dead” wasn’t only meant to tell the story of Paul’s personal spiritual transformation but rather, Paul represented all of them and, in a way,even us - those of us who’d decide to embark on the similar journey.
Again, all of this is pure speculation on my part inspired by the advice to look into John’s and Paul’s interests and fascinations at the time.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 15, 2024 9:51:26 GMT -5
The “ get trepanned ” bit is kind of interesting, as is the “ we started to realize there wasn’t as many frontiers as we’d thought there were. And we realized we could break barriers” remark - whatever he meant by that.
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Post by ramone on Jul 15, 2024 11:39:39 GMT -5
To me it sounds like a bit of a contradiction. " we realized we could break barriers” - which to me sounds like there are new frontiers possibly ahead.
But then - " we started to realize there wasn’t as many frontiers as we’d thought there were. " A little odd. Or am I reading this wrong.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 15, 2024 12:57:24 GMT -5
To me it sounds like a bit of a contradiction. " we realized we could break barriers” - which to me sounds like there are new frontiers possibly ahead. But then - " we started to realize there wasn’t as many frontiers as we’d thought there were. " A little odd. Or am I reading this wrong. I thought he meant a lot of what we perceive as limits (to our knowledge for example) or borders/barriers (between us and the other people/ universe; past, present and future; life and death… Paul and Billy even?..) aren’t actually real, only existing in our heads, but even those which do exist aren’t unbreakable because everything is possible, something like that. Interesting, your comment just reminded me of one of Apollo’s posts about Klaatu, “ A "neutrino" is a particle that can dis-appear, and re-appear at will. It can also pass through solid objects unknown and uneffected. ” “We realized we could break barriers”…
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Post by jarvitronics on Jul 16, 2024 10:32:44 GMT -5
I did LSD a couple of times when I was in my late teens. I did not perceive it to be a "mystical" experience. There were weird hallucinatory effects: melting walls, tracers, objects breathing, conflation of the senses (seeing odors and hearing sights), but nothing like what the Beatles described. For me, THC, while not producing hallucinatory effects, is the molecule that dissolves barriers of thought and makes me go, "Whoa".
-j
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Post by ramone on Jul 16, 2024 12:30:14 GMT -5
Read your comment J and this scene came to mind
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Post by ramone on Jul 16, 2024 12:41:21 GMT -5
To me it sounds like a bit of a contradiction. " we realized we could break barriers” - which to me sounds like there are new frontiers possibly ahead. But then - " we started to realize there wasn’t as many frontiers as we’d thought there were. " A little odd. Or am I reading this wrong. I thought he meant a lot of what we perceive as limits (to our knowledge for example) or borders/barriers (between us and the other people/ universe; past, present and future; life and death… Paul and Billy even?..) aren’t actually real, only existing in our heads, but even those which do exist aren’t unbreakable because everything is possible, something like that. Interesting, your comment just reminded me of one of Apollo’s posts about Klaatu, “ A "neutrino" is a particle that can dis-appear, and re-appear at will. It can also pass through solid objects unknown and uneffected. ” “We realized we could break barriers”… Interesting how this band writes a song about...
Like this vid -for some reason, lol
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Post by ekauqodielak on Jul 16, 2024 19:32:51 GMT -5
I did LSD a couple of times when I was in my late teens. I did not perceive it to be a "mystical" experience. There were weird hallucinatory effects: melting walls, tracers, objects breathing, conflation of the senses (seeing odors and hearing sights), but nothing like what the Beatles described. For me, THC, while not producing hallucinatory effects, is the molecule that dissolves barriers of thought and makes me go, "Whoa". -j
I did a lot of acid in my teens and never had a mystical experience with it (or any other drug.) It was amusing and a fun time, never had a bad trip, but I certainly never saw god nor did any of my friends, so far as they communicated. If anything, shrooms probably have given me a more vaguely "spiritual" experience, but really I probably just prefer it because of the body relaxation. Absolutely despise MJ and cannot tolerate potheads. I'd rather be trapped in an elevator with drunks and junkies than have to spend ten minutes dealing with a pothead.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 22, 2024 9:13:13 GMT -5
I did LSD a couple of times when I was in my late teens. I did not perceive it to be a "mystical" experience. There were weird hallucinatory effects: melting walls, tracers, objects breathing, conflation of the senses (seeing odors and hearing sights), but nothing like what the Beatles described. For me, THC, while not producing hallucinatory effects, is the molecule that dissolves barriers of thought and makes me go, "Whoa". -j Interesting, seems like it’s all very subjective indeed. I remember reading a book by Stan Grof who, among other things, explored the therapeutic potential of LSD and he basically describes a very similar experience - "I suppose having LSD was like somebody catapulting me out into space", as George put it (or John, “ We must always remember to thank the CIA and the Army for LSD. They brought out LSD to control people, and what they did was give us freedom.” ) But I guess it’s not really about the psychedelics per se but what they discovered because of them (to quote George once again, “ People will think, ‘This is me.’ This isn’t me. This is just a bag of bones. Basically, everybody’s spirit… pure consciousness“; “They haven’t been able to see God because he is hidden in themselves.”; or Paul, “ It is obvious that God isn’t in a pill, but it explained the mystery of life. It was truly a religious experience”.) What I mean is maybe their personal psychedelic experience led them to these kind of profound revelations which really changed them on a very deep level and that could very well be one of the reasons why there’s a grave on the Pepper cover: the mop tops are no more, our former selves are no more. And that’s something they wanted to share with their fans: “With Pepper it’s just that anybody who feels anybody who wants to be in Pepper’s Band is in it.” (George in his 1968 Rolling Stone interview) Anyone can be in Sgt Pepper’s band if they want it meaning anyone can go through a similar experience and find what we’ve found which is your own true self / god inside / being one with the universe / being divine and eternal and free from death and the limitations of your psychical body etc. Something like that. Now I’m by no means saying this is the core of the mystery - I just think that it might be relevant to it in some way. Was Paul’s experience somehow different than that of the others, hence this “Paul is dead” / “3 Beatles (the “one, one, one, X” on the bass drum on the Pepper cover) thing? Why was so important about it that they’ve kept putting clues in their albums ever since? Did it really make him want to quit the industry or was it more of a spiritual transformation without the actual retirement? I honestly have no idea but I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of the answers lay in their psychedelic experience and the changes it caused in their thinking (judging solely by how they themselves talk about it as something very profound). But of course my hypothesis could be totally off the mark… just a tiny hint from those in the know about this whole mystery would be helpful!
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Post by ramone on Jul 22, 2024 16:28:43 GMT -5
Well, if we think about the Frost interview - Paul said then he wanted to retire 'in a couple of years'. Which would be in 1966. And coincidentally, right then, we see a 'giant' of a man step in 'write' on time. As if part of the script. ACV might have hinted that the death of TARA kind of sealed it. (the straw that...)
Another thing to consider is - who is saying what. Is Billy talking about his experience with acid? That would be more the case it seems because JPM didn't expound on it as far as I know.
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Post by cayetana on Jul 26, 2024 11:59:41 GMT -5
Well, if we think about the Frost interview - Paul said then he wanted to retire 'in a couple of years'. Which would be in 1966. And coincidentally, right then, we see a 'giant' of a man step in 'write' on time. As if part of the script. ACV might have hinted that the death of TARA kind of sealed it. (the straw that...) Another thing to consider is - who is saying what. Is Billy talking about his experience with acid? That would be more the case it seems because JPM didn't expound on it as far as I know. Okay, but if this whole mystery boils down to Paul being replaced then why did both Apollo and Mike (A Pinch of Vermouth) insist that we should keep “playing the game”? Surely the people on this board knew about the switch already (no matter what specific theory one might believe, i.e. Paul is dead, Paul retired etc), so what is it we’re supposed to find at the end of the road (or along the way even) if we embark on this journey other than the fact he was replaced (something we’ve known all along)? Why all the riddle? Should it be treated as an art project, as someone put it? Should we look into exactly how the replacement was carried out? If so than what’s so important about it? To cut it short, if, as Apollo once said, the replacement was the alpha and omega of this mystery then what’s more left there to investigate? On a slightly different note, I was rewatching the Beatles Anthology the other day and in the episode about Sgt Pepper, when they get to the stage where the Beatles don’t want to tour anymore and John goes to Spain and Ringo joins him there soon after and George talks about India they then show Neil who says, “ George was doing his Indian stuff. I don’t know what Paul was doing. I don’t know what he was doing…” It kind of struck me as interesting and a bit contrived really, because they then go on to talk about Paul writing the score for The Family Way and I think it was common knowledge he did that and after all Neil was the one who oversaw the project because he was there and indeed most of the time he remembers everything that went on in such detail, then all of a sudden he says “I don’t know what Paul was doing” twice, as if wanting to emphasize it… May be just my imagination and he genuinely didn’t know or remember of course but still interesting… after all, it’s that very episode which ends with this big picture of the Pepper cover with a few mirrored images (such as The Walrus), as if inviting us to look in a certain way…
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Post by ramone on Jul 28, 2024 12:03:46 GMT -5
"[/quote] Okay, but if this whole mystery boils down to Paul being replaced then why did both Apollo and Mike (A Pinch of Vermouth) insist that we should keep “playing the game”? Surely the people on this board knew about the switch already (no matter what specific theory one might believe, i.e. Paul is dead, Paul retired etc), so what is it we’re supposed to find at the end of the road (or along the way even) if we embark on this journey other than the fact he was replaced (something we’ve known all along)? Why all the riddle? Should it be treated as an art project, as someone put it? Should we look into exactly how the replacement was carried out? If so than what’s so important about it? To cut it short, if, as Apollo once said, the replacement was the alpha and omega of this mystery then what’s more left there to investigate? " All good questions. I think ACV said we have the basic concept or story, (but, what about the in betweens, the details) and that we had to figure out central casting. He made it plain there was more than one 'paul'. And that it seems it was funneled down to one guy (at least basically) to continue the role. This would seem to be during the transition time. But, does it exclude time prior? He said it might surprise as to how much work (and people) there was during the process to pull off a replacement. As far as the 'cast' are other Beatles included? If so, which one(s)?
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Post by revolver on Jul 28, 2024 15:45:39 GMT -5
Well, if we think about the Frost interview - Paul said then he wanted to retire 'in a couple of years'. Which would be in 1966. And coincidentally, right then, we see a 'giant' of a man step in 'write' on time. As if part of the script. ACV might have hinted that the death of TARA kind of sealed it. (the straw that...) Another thing to consider is - who is saying what. Is Billy talking about his experience with acid? That would be more the case it seems because JPM didn't expound on it as far as I know. According to the Mal Evens bio, JPM took acid for the first time in Dec. 1965 with Tara Browne.
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Post by ramone on Jul 28, 2024 16:01:37 GMT -5
Yes, but thinking in the context of Caya - "I honestly have no idea but I wouldn’t be surprised if at least some of the answers lay in their psychedelic experience and the changes it caused in their thinking (judging solely by how they themselves talk about it as something very profound). But of course my hypothesis could be totally off the mark… just a tiny hint from those in the know about this whole mystery would be helpful! "
I remember bill talking about it openly. Maybe JPM did but don't remember him doing so. My thought is perhaps it's something he dabbled in but maybe not as much as the others. If that's the case - maybe it had little to do with transformation personally. But, who knows.
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Post by ramone on Jul 29, 2024 11:14:12 GMT -5
Me: "He made it plain there was more than one 'paul'. And that it seems it was funneled down to one guy (at least basically) to continue the role. This would seem to be during the transition time."
Maybe three? at transition time. But, I think Billy has been the 'one' from that time forward. Not to say there couldn't be a sub in there if needed.
Prior to transition time I think there was one Paul - that is JPM. The great bass player and signature voice in those years. Not to say there also couldn't be a sub in there if needed.
At least a working theory. and given this thread's subject matter - how much traction was gained with all the videos presented over the period of time. Any working theories arising from them? Any ground breakers?
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