Were there Stand Ins in MMT?

[LOVELYRITA]

On TKIN site they have shown pictures of stand ins for Ringo, George and John. I find it interesting that the pics of George and John's doubles are from the MMT.
And even the thread with the Ringo double strikes me something that I remember from the movie, The Beatles didn't seem like themselves.

Now follow me here and try to understand what I am trying to present.

Perhaps the Ringo, John and George doubles were not total replacements, in that they did not take over the total identity of the originals as Bill did with JPM, but rather the public persona of John, George and Ringol.
Because there are subtle differences in those pics posted. If you could sense something from them, the imposters don't seem the same.

If, when you watch MMT and observe body language, they seemed like four people in the same film, but not the same chemistry as in Help or AHDN. That lack of chemistry is obvious in LIB.

Maybe John, Ringo and George, the true survivors lived a private life, maybe they were encamped at some location unknown to John Q Public, but to the shadow system, they had them kept, whilst the doubles lived the "public" life. The appearances on programs, etc.

It makes me think there could be this mysterious and strange setting perhaps an experient on how to control a group of people by using them to control a larger number of people.

Or...could this all be an elaborate hoax?
Pretend there's a PID and say it's just a hoax and then that hoax be a hoax?

Scratch your heads and check back later.....

[lili]

That is so weird, Rita. All I can say is that I hope that you're wrong in this. Alot of the photos that I have of George from MMT show a very serious & somber man. Even John looks very serious in many of the photos. You're right in that the chemistry was totally lacking in that movie. It's as if they are all strangers to each other. If they weren't doubles, I think that they were trying to show us that they were not the same people they had been before that. That the thrill was gone. Playtime was over

[LOVELYRITA]

The dream is over....it was no longer JPM in the band but an imposter. If indeed these were not stand ins used, the only two shown together were George and John.

Even if these doubles were only used in MMT as symbolic that the group was no longer like they were before 1966, it would stand to reason why they looked strangely different in that particular movie and fit in with the strangeness of that film. Strangeness in that it was not the Beatles as a unit, but individuals, Bill as the Fool on the Hill, RIngo with his aunt, and George and John just seemed like the rest of the group on the bus. The time only together was singing I am the Walrus, as the Wizards and at the end with Your MOther Should Know.

Now if one looks at the pics posted on that other thread, that these stand ins were only public occasionally, and that the true survivors did appear in public later as well.

This may seem confusing, but perhaps the real Beatles needed time to recover from their loss and these substitutes served as the Beatles for a time until they were capable of being back in the mainstream.

After all, this site is to show different ideas, not saying this is fact, but going from what has been posted.

[lili]

All very true. The only reason that I doubt it is because of the demeanor of John & George in that movie. They were both so very serious. In the Blue Jay Way sequence, George looks like he has been crying. His eyes are red rimmed, & he was so very drawn & pale.
I think that if they were stand - ins, it would've been more likely that they would've acted happy & goofy like everyone else was doing on the bus. That just wasn't the case at all. There was the occasional silly face or something, but their entire attitude was out of sync with everyone else around them.
I find it hard watching that movie. I have tried to numerous times, but just can't sit through the whole thing at once. I find it very inane & disturbing to watch.
Especially the bits with Ringo & his aunt. His personality is so very different than it was in the 1st two movies. He's so serious & just plain NASTY. That whole movie is like an acid trip gone awry.
I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just trying to look at all possibilities also.

[LOVELYRITA]

Perhaps some of the clips were of the real ones, and some were the fake ones.
Nothing would surprise me. That film was a hodgepodge of strange things, and with the clues, just makes it more eerie.

[lili]

That could very well be true. Like I stated, I can't sit down & watch that movie from beginning to end. It's a cinematic version of a bad trip !
It would make sense in away. It would be the ultimate clue. It's like the boys are saying now you see us, now you don't ! Can YOU tell the difference between us & our stand-ins ?
Again, they're banking on people eventually catching on that Paul HAD been replaced !
That everything was no longer as it seemed !

[noodles]

When Paul was replaced the aim would have been to confuse the public mind. They dressed the band up in all sorts of weird and wonderful clothing that people had never seen them in before, they had new and everchanging haircuts and facial hair, Lennon started wearing glasses, they used several Paul doubles, changed some pictures but left others untouched, made the music very complicated and 'psychedelic', had the Beatles use different and new styles of singing, changed the general syle of the music, ssed several Paul voice impressionists and probably used voice impressionists to do some of the non 'Paul' stuff (I don't think that's John doing the bulk of the vocal on 'Come Together'). Anything to distract from the fact the 'Paul' looked and sounded different.

They would have used doubles for the rest of the band on occassions too and probably doctored some of their photos. I'm pretty sure that Paul is the only one who permanantly dissappeared though.

[lili]

That sounds reasonable, noodles. Anything, to confuse the issue. Although, I'm not certain that it was the boys who were behind that confusion. I mean, I'm pretty certain that they themselves were torn up about Paul. I think that part of the reason that they used drugs so heavily at the time was to try to forget about it all.

[noodles]

I don't believe that they were behind it lili but that had to have been 100% part of it. It couldn't have worked if they weren't. Obviously that means the clues weren't clues at all but something else. I think the car crash is disinfo partially fed to us in the 'clues' and partially fed to us via an unknown caller to a radio station. I suspect that Paul didn't die and I suspect that his removal was pre planned. They certainly seem to have cranked up the mind control machine long before he disappeared from public view. The extended head on the 'Rubber Soul' sleeve and the two 'Yesterday And Today' sleeves both fit the subtle mind control techniques and symbolism used on the post Paul disappearence sleeves.

The more I look into the this the more I suspect those Tavistock stories are true. The techniques that they used to hide Paul's disappearence were very sophisticated and must have come from govenrnment agency. I doubt the inspiration for that would have been money. No one knew what The Beatles would become at the point. They hadn't done some of their most memorable work. Certainly they were maturing with 'Rubber Soul' and 'Revolver' but it's much of the post Paul work that's kept their legacy alive and the money rolling in.

Officially much of The Beatles magic came from the Lennon/McCartney songwriting partnership and with Paul gone there would have been serious doubts over whether The Beatles had any future at all let alone a future that justified the enormous time and expense that must have gone into covering up what had happened. Not to mention the fact that at least one (probably two or three) people had their appearence permenantly change in some way. This also supports the fact that the remaining Beatle would have had to have been 100% sold to the idea. At any time they could have blown the whole thing. Would anyone have risked that without having guaranteed that the three remaining Beatles were part of this to the end?

Many of the 'Paul Is Dead' clues are so blatant that the record label must have noticed. I can believe that they missed the 'I buried Paul' at the end of Strawberry Fields' but the symbolism of the 'Pepper' and 'Abbey Road' covers is rather blatant (particularly 'Pepper'). People must have been examing everying very carfully, particually at that time, to make sure nothing slipped through to give them away. So it's unlikely they would have missed that changes to the Madam Tussauds heads, the left handed guitar on the grave and other obvious 'clues'.

[il ras]

noodles, once again I must agree with you, let me make this hypothesis: they put in their works many more clues than we have now.
What remains in the covers and in the LPs could be the result of a filtration operated by.... someone.

[Doc]

ilras said:

noodles, once again I must agree with you, let me make this hypothesis: they put in their works many more clues than we have now.
What remains in the covers and in the LPs could be the result of a filtration operated by.... someone.

And, there aren't many original 60's Beatle's LP's left circulating. Well, that is my personal idea. They are worth a lot; so quite costly to obtain. And just maybe they've been being bought up by just certain interested people over the last 38 years and put away out of being recirculated. $$$ will attract sellers; people don't mind or know the diff between a '67 Beatle record and a '70 reprint. They likely look equally old and too similar without scrutiny to clock a diff.

Meaning-----the oldest issues, the true oldest issues that are hard to lay hands on, may have even more clues on them. Maybe the first issue of MMT has John whispering a clue thing in the middle of one of his songs that was gone by the second pressing............maybe 10,000 copies have something clue-like, one of those 10,000 LP's may be very very hard to ever run across..........10,000 isn't really very many LP units when you are staring down the reality of there being 2 million, 5 million, 10 million.......many more units ---of even just one title in circulation.

[lili]

Your Tavistock reference has me reeling What if the boys were forced to take part in that mind control experiment ? Paul was VERY strong willed. Much more than John, believe it or not. John could be manipulated. Paul never played that kind of thing. He was always very no-nonsense & forthright. What if Paul refused to go along with the charade any longer ? What was to stop TPTB from eliminating Paul so that they could continue with their plans unchallenged ? I don't think that they realized just how irreplaceable he really was, until it was too late !

[il ras]

lili said:

I don't think that they realized just how irreplaceable he really was, until it was too late !

Don't call me cynic: he's irreplaceable just for us and the ones who knew him...

Anyway your hypothesis is logical.

[noodles]

ilras said:

noodles, once again I must agree with you, let me make this hypothesis: they put in their works many more clues than we have now.
What remains in the covers and in the LPs could be the result of a filtration operated by.... someone.

Obviously what you say is a possibility ilras but I think it would have been very difficult to do. I think the 'clues' served several purposes.

1. They are a distraction. You only have to look at the countless clue obsessed websites and books to see that you can provide an awful lot of PID information without ever going near the real evidence.

2. Necessity. The fact that 'Paul' is facing forward on the sleeve of Sgt Pepper is probaly to make it easier to cut and paste JPM features on him. Album covers are studied a lot more than magazines and this was their first sleeve without Paul.

3. Mind control. As I said Tavistock or a smililar agency must have been involved in the cover up. 'I buried Paul' may well be a subliminal rather than a hidden message. Think about how many times you heard that before you actually listen to what it said. Your subconcious mind probably worked out what he was saying long before.

4. Disinfo. This ties in with no. 3. In a cover up you need a cover up. You don't just hide what you've done you make sure that anyone who gets a little too interested gets sent down all sorts of dead ends and still ends up believing a lie. The pre disappearence clues and the sophisticated nature of all of this make it seem preplanned. If that's the case then it wasn't an accidental car crash.

5. Symolism. I don't know how many of you believe in the hidden hand of secret societies but if you study the freemasons, the illuminati and so forth then you'll know how obsessed they are with symbolism. It's all around us. A lot of the 'clues' look like symbolism to me. Need to dig deeper though.

6. A PR excercise. The majority of people who take an interest in the PID phenomonem are Beatles fans and therefore want to believe that The Beatles are innocents in all of this. 'Clues' presented by The Beatles help support this. As I said it couldn't have worked without their full cooperation.

BTW I'm not saying people shouldn't look for 'clues' and examine what has been found already. The 'clues' are very much part of this and in some cases throw up some very interesting questions. The Madam Tussauds heads being a prime example.

doctorrobert said:

And, there aren't many original 60's Beatle's LP's left circulating. Well, that is my personal idea. They are worth a lot; so quite costly to obtain. And just maybe they've been being bought up by just certain interested people over the last 38 years and put away out of being recirculated. $$$ will attract sellers; people don't mind or know the diff between a '67 Beatle record and a '70 reprint. They likely look equally old and too similar without scrutiny to clock a diff.

Meaning-----the oldest issues, the true oldest issues that are hard to lay hands on, may have even more clues on them. Maybe the first issue of MMT has John whispering a clue thing in the middle of one of his songs that was gone by the second pressing............maybe 10,000 copies have something clue-like, one of those 10,000 LP's may be very very hard to ever run across..........10,000 isn't really very many LP units when you are staring down the reality of there being 2 million, 5 million, 10 million.......many more units ---of even just one title in circulation.

They certainly changed things beteween pressings. There's the extended 'Tomorrow Never Knows' and someone mentioned a change to 'Blue Jay Way' on this forum too. But The Beatles were HUGE! Their records were pressed up in enormous quntities. 750,00 butchers sleeved copies 'Yesterday And Today' were manufactured. That's an enormous first pressing. Plenty of copies of this and every other Beatles first pressing are for sale every week on ebay. You're right though, they are generally expensive and it's possible that those with the money could be taking them out of circulation. But if you look hard enough you can find first pressings of pretty much any beatles record for little money. They may be in imperfect condition but they are out there.

lili said:

Your Tavistock reference has me reeling What if the boys were forced to take part in that mind control experiment ? Paul was VERY strong willed. Much more than John, believe it or not. John could be manipulated. Paul never played that kind of thing. He was always very no-nonsense & forthright. What if Paul refused to go along with the charade any longer ? What was to stop TPTB from eliminating Paul so that they could continue with their plans unchallenged ? I don't think that they realized just how irreplaceable he really was, until it was too late !

They may have got caught up in something they didn't want to be part of and certainly Paul may have been killed because he no longer wanted to play the game. If you look at what the replacement did when he stepped into Paul's shoes he basically started promoting LSD. They all did. When you watch the 'LSD interview' with Stage 2 Paul and you realise that he's reading from a script then you have to wonder. As Lennon said in that final Playboy interview 'We must always remember to thank the CIA and the Army for LSD. That's what people forget.'

[lili]

Noodles, and John was very right about that. The army used its own men as guinea pigs when they first started doing experiments with LSD ! The govt. has been doing that all along with a variety of things. Using test subjects who are unaware of the fact ! It make me very, very angry

[superman]

I find it funny how fast one Paul is replaced by another in the few opening moments of the film ... DURING the song "Magical Mystery Tour"

If you look here ...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO3pfEVT9CU

you'll see one Paul waving when the counter hits 18

and COMPLETELY DIFFERENT one waving when it hits 21

If you look at the set of Beatles at 21 ... are they ALL different guys? I think so ...

[B]

Absolutely. It is done purposely. I'll comment more in another thread later.