Penny Lane (revisited)

[southpaw]

I was driving today and Penny Lane was on the radio. This is in my opinion the very first "paul voice imitater" recording . To me this recording is the worst attempt at imatating James P's voice. I cannot see how anyone can possibly think that this is really James paul singing .I slowed it down and still doesn't even slightly resemble JP's voice. I've heard a different version/take of this song and is was just as weak and thin sounding vocally. (not very soulful to say the least)
I think this voice sounds more like the voice on Fool on the Hill and possibly hello goodbye, the latter two sound like an improved imataion(mabye this particular imitater improved somewhat, or there were several )
I know these topics are taboo but there is alot of difference in opinion on many songs but more importantly what songs are these songs in question?
Other than the ones mentioned above here are some of the other tricky ones

Sgt pep (I think its all faul)
getting better (faul,some james P overdub)
fixing a hole (paul/faul overdub)
your mother should know (paul/faul overdub)
she's leaving home (Paul)
Jury is still out for me concerning when I'm sixty four and Day in the life insert.
white album and beyond all sound like the same vocalist to me.
Sorry if this post bothers anyone , I just think there is alot to be found in those recordings

[Doc]

Well, just my opinion, Southpaw, but I rerecorded Penny Lane on to a tape and used a variable pitch machine to listen to When I'm 64. My conclusion is that James Pauls wrote, rehearsed, learned, and habituated that song in the key of A on the guitar, but used a capo to put it up into concert Bmajor (two half steps up.) So, in concert, heard key, he sang it and played it customarily (enough to perform it smmothly) in Bmajor. I suspect he might have done a guitar scratch track first (played and fingered in A capoed to B) then he sang his vocal. This sat for a while. Then it was increased to Db major (which is where we hear it on Pepper) and a clarinet choir and other things were added. By slowing it down to the neighborhood of B, I felt what I heard was right on target with the voice I associate with JP.
I could be wrong------I may try it again and test myself.

I think the DITL insert is JP as well. Listen to "seconds flat".
The way he seems to want to anticipate the meter on "had a, smmm-oke" makes it seem like a scratch take.

Fool on the Hill is enigmatic. In everyway.

[JoJo]

For Fool On the Hill, I'm in the "George sang it" camp. Or at least in the beginning it sounds like him, and then it seems to become sorta vague. Darkhorse mentioned this, on Anthology, one version sounds really like George, and one like Faul. I think George contributed more than we realize, he had to be the most likely candidate to provide a passible imitation, after some processing to make it sound not like George at all. Maybe not like Paul either, but the voice is not unfamiliar or alien, your subconscious knows it belongs there don't you think? That would provide a bridge to the imitator taking over.

I can think of an old song that when it starts out you may (at least in my case) think it's Paul, but actually it's George. Listen to "Do You Want to Know a Secret".

[Doc]

I agree, its especially the first "Day after Day" and the accent that suggests George.

[LarryC]

Do you guys base this opinion on the way he pronounces certain words with that Liverpudian accent, or the tonal quality of his voice? If it's based purely on the accent, then I can see where you could come to this conclusion. But based on tonal quality of the voice, I have to disagree. George's voice, the pitch and tone of it, has always sort of had a bit of a rough edge to it, even when he sang falsetto. Paul's voice, on the other hand, only had a rough edge on it when he wanted it there.

Out of curiosity I have reviewed Fool on the Hill from MMT, as well as the Anthology, and I would agree about the accent being similar in the way some of the words are formed...but the tonal quality of the voice is not George's...JMO however. There isn't anything you can do in pre or post production to take the sort of edge from a person's voice like George's without making the sound so muddy that you can't bear listening to it, or understand what they are saying in the first place. Of course, I realize there are some folks that feel that way about listening to Fool on the Hill anyways... ;D

[Doc]

I agree Larry-George had a slight rough "edge" on his sound, almost a froggy,"my voice is changing" sound, at times, and his vowels always sound closed off to me, like he was reticent to open or drop his jaw very far.

The quality of Fool on the Hill that is remarkable to me is the breath control---the release is measured, even, controlled (most of it). I haven't listened yo it in a few months---Ill hear it again cause Ive lost the sound of it in my head.

Anyway, yes, the Liverpool vowels in the earliest line of the sound made me think of George, not really the tone quality, no.

It could be an EQ situation; can't put my "ear" on it right now.

I think "Fool in the Hill" was basically sung in too high of a key for it to have been George.

[LarryC]

Yea I think George would have come more near to immitating John than he ever would Paul because John had the same sort of a gravely edge in his voice as well, maybe just a tad bit more pronounced than that of George's. In fact, I think George may have double-tracked his voice with Johns in the song Real Love, it sort of sounds like it, and it may have been necessary to do that in order to give John's vocal a little bit of clarity considering the media it was coming from. A little bit of double-tracking here and there, not everywhere, but just in spots, and keeping the level well in the background. In the Anthology where they show the making of Real Love, I think we actually see this taking place in the studio...I'll have to watch it again to be sure.

I had not given any thought to the key in which FOTH was in, and now that you mention it, Doc, I agree with your opinion there for sure. It's not in a range we would normally hear George singing in comfortably...IMO of course ;D

[southpaw]

This is exactly the kind of discussion i had hoped for on this particular thread ;D
I do agree there is strong resemblence to george's voice on Fool on the hill(especially the first few stanza's)
but i feel like the vocal is a yet unamed vocal imitator.
I used to think fool on the hill was a song James Paul wrote, until I listened to John in glass onion.
Strange how John would write a song about a fool on the hill when his close freind just died innocently allegedly in a car wreck.
All the discography web sites state soley (mccartney) as the author of fool on the hill. a clue?

[eyesbleed]

DoctorRobert said:

I think "Fool in the Hill" was basically sung in too high of a key for it to have been George.

Don't forget about all the studio trickery. If George did sing FOTH, or at least part of it, then I would think the tapes were sped up a bit... not to mention all the effects & proccessing they were using on all the vocals during Sgt.P & MMT.
I think that was the idea back then.... to really muddy the waters so stuff like this will be almost impossible to figure out.

[Doc]

Yep, eyesbleed, Fool on the Hill sounds slightly sped up to me. I haven't listen to it slightly slowed down, yet. It isn't much, I don't think; so far, the most exxagerated "speed ups" , in my opinion at this time, are When Im 64, and more still, "Lovely Rita." Rita is nearly a helium sound. (I dont think he sang on helium, just the effect.) Lovely Rita, again, slowed down sounds much like JP. I may try variablespeed listening tomorrow when Im not as busy-------Im in between work---gotta go back

[FlamingPie]

DoctorRobert said:

Yep, eyesbleed, Fool on the Hill sounds slightly sped up to me. I haven't listen to it slightly slowed down, yet. It isn't much, I don't think; so far, the most exxagerated "speed ups" , in my opinion at this time, are When Im 64, and more still, "Lovely Rita." Rita is nearly a helium sound. (I dont think he sang on helium, just the effect.) Lovely Rita, again, slowed down sounds much like JP. I may try variablespeed listening tomorrow when Im not as busy-------Im in between work---gotta go back

But wouldn't it be easier just to slow down all the songs that Faul sings? That way people wouldn't hear much of a change.

[LarryC]

Ok, you compelled me to pull this song into my Sonic Foundry tools and play around with it...I've slowed it down, I've lowered the pitch, I've played around with the EQ, I've done combinations of all the above...still speaks like George, but sings like Paul...hahaha. The audio on the vocal track is not muddy at all on this song either so IF there is any audio wizzardry on this, it's pretty darn good because it's undetectable. About the only thing I can detect that was done special, apart from a touch of reverb or echo so the vocal track won't be so dry, is that the voice is double tracked in certain portions...but this isn't anything they haven't done before as they double tracked their vocals on several songs.

[Doc]

Flaming said:

But wouldn't it be easier just to slow down all the songs that Faul sings? That way people wouldn't hear much of a change.

T h a t w o u l d s o u n d l i k e t h e t a p e w a s

d r a g g i n g ...................

OK, its a question of degrees, how much etc.

Heck, I dunno. Maybe they tried it. They said they were gonna try all kinds of new things--all new sounds------the BEatles were gonna revolutionize their sound. I mean, that was all part of progressing, too, trying new sonic things.That was happening on Rubber Soul what with backwards guitar loops and such---------after "Pet Sound" I think Paul and John were like---OK, we gotta throw in the kitchen sink, now.................Of course, Wilson was intimidated by their Rubber Soul record----so, healthy competition led to some novel approaches. Just an opinion......

[LarryC]

The amount of experimentation they did in the last half of their time in the studio is mind boggling. Sir George Martin's commentary about the making of 'Tomorrow Never Knows' on the Anthology DVD is particularly interesting. He made a comment which basically said he doubted they could ever do that again, at least utilizing the same techniques. It sounds as though making the song was every bit as chaotic, perhaps more, as the song sounds with all the loops which were used...not to take away from the genius that went into its creation ;D

[eyesbleed]

DoctorRobert said:

T h a t w o u l d s o u n d l i k e t h e t a p e w a s

d r a g g i n g ...................

OK, its a question of degrees, how much etc.
......

A cd set called "Plunderphonics" by John Oswald explores all kinds of studio experiments using popular songs & then making them into something else..
On one track he slows down the master tape considerably, but he's able to keep to the same beat.
He does it by literally snipping out enough small pieces of tape to make the slowed one line up with the normal one. He made a really (really) trippy song out of a Dolly Parton record. It's funny coz her voice sounds much more natural as a male tenor than it does normally!

But anyway... I'll bet George Martin had lots of tricks up his sleeves also... not to mention all the ideas The beatles were adding.

DoctorRobert said:

Of course, Wilson was intimidated by their Rubber Soul record----so, healthy competition led to some novel approaches. Just an opinion......

Absolutely! That was a very good competition goin' on there. Rubber Soul was the fuel that drove BW to make Pet Sounds. Actually... I think I like Pet Sounds better than Rubber Soul.
And Pet Sounds had some influence on the songwriting for Sgt.P.
And Sgt.P. was the fuel that drove BW to make Smile....
well.. along with lots of LSD that is. Too damn bad Smile wasn't finished & released in 67; it would've been remembered as a major masterpiece right along with Sgt.P. Shoulder to shoulder.

I see Mr.Wilson & Van Dyke Parks are currently touring & performing the Smile album live!! Holy Crap!!
I can't wait for the dvd!

[Phaedrus]

George? Nope, can't see it. If he was able to sing like this, he would have made an effort to sing better in general. His voice was thin and reedy and in his throat, and didn't have the range that McCartney or the "vocal immitator" dipslayed on any post 66 songs. George didn't really have a talent for singing, as such, and his finest moments in the Beatles, arguably Something and HCTS on Abbey Rd, were praised in one review because he sounded a little like Paul. His Scouse accent always comes through though.

However, it was almost certainly a Liverpudlian singing on Penny Lane, or a very clever immitator. Clever because of the pronunciation of "customer" as "coostomer" and the "ch" sound in banker. John also displays his Liverpool roots in Across the Universe with "coop" instead of "cup", and in ADITL where he says Lancasheer instead of Lancashire.

[JoJo]

What I see happening is using whatever scrap JPM sang into a tape and incorporating it in whatever way George Martin could manage it. I can't comment on what the Doc said, because I got lost with all that music lingo.. ;D I'm willing to stipulate that he's an expert in his field your honor... ;D The insert in A DayITL sounds like JP, even more so on the Anthology version. Sounds like an odd thing to focus on, but when he says "oh s**t", (when he forgets his lines?) that hard "T" reminds me of the way he pronounces his "T's" on Paperback Writer, a sharp pronounced "T" sound. I'm working from memory here, but subject was a post on the old board once and then reposted on LJ's site later on.

I believe the thrust of the argument was that pronouncing the T sound like that, sharply, was a British thing, while pronouncing the T sound more like a "D", eg "paperback rider" is a North American thing. Is there a change in pronounciation after?

[JoJo]

DoctorRobert said:

Well, just my opinion, Southpaw, but I rerecorded Penny Lane on to a tape and used a variable pitch machine to listen to When I'm 64. My conclusion is that James Pauls wrote, rehearsed, learned, and habituated that song in the key of A on the guitar, but used a capo to put it up into concert Bmajor (two half steps up.) So, in concert, heard key, he sang it and played it customarily (enough to perform it smmothly) in Bmajor. I suspect he might have done a guitar scratch track first (played and fingered in A capoed to B) then he sang his vocal. This sat for a while. Then it was increased to Db major (which is where we hear it on Pepper) and a clarinet choir and other things were added. By slowing it down to the neighborhood of B, I felt what I heard was right on target with the voice I associate with JP.
I could be wrong------I may try it again and test myself.

I saw this in the book "The Complete recording Sessions" and I remembered you saying something along the same lines, so I searched for this post. Yes, turns out you were correct, it's speeded up..