where did john get 'nothing you can see...' from?

[The Deceptionist]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMh3CgdZ56Q

I was just watching a documentary about UFOs and a quote following the heading "Relearning How to Observe the UFO Phenomenon" seemed to jump out at me as though I'd seen it before somewhere.. it read:


"Recognise what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

Jesus, the Gospel of St Thomas


"There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."

John Lennon, All You Need is Love

[B]

Apollo. As in Apollo C Vermouth. My best guess. I don't know it for a fact.

[The Deceptionist]

Forgive me for sounding retarded - as is so often the case - but that went right over my head... Apollo? Which part was that in reply to?

[B]

"There's nothing you can see that isn't shown" is NIR poster Apollo C Vermouth's favorite saying.
He puts it in all of his posts.
He seems to be making an analogy with the sun shining, revealing what's otherwise
hidden in darkness, with light.
His point is that anything you can see, regarding PID/PWR, is revealed to you. It is shown (shone)
by "the mind that knows".
So, just as sunshine reveals things, the entity Apollo, the "mind that knows", the spirit of the being
with that name, reveals to you what's true regarding PID/PWR.
It's an internal process.
By calling himself Apollo, Mr. Vermouth suggests implicitly that he speaks for Apollo,
the spirit that reveals (shows).
If he were to call himself Lucifer C Vermouth, "Lucifer" being the light bearer, people would assume
the worst, no doubt. So he goes with "Apollo".
Anyway, Apollo C Vermouth's posts suggest he was an insider.
Therefore, I am saying that the person who gave John the idea
that "There's nothing you can see that isn't shown"
was either Apollo, "the god", or the mortal who goes by the name Apollo C Vermouth.
Since Apollo C Vermouth is the name that "Paul McCartney" used as producer for the Bonzo Dog
Band's "I am the Urban Spaceman", we might be inclined to think that he is Paul McCartney
or Faul. As regards Faul, Apollo has said, "I've been called worse", so he does not appear
to be Faul.
On the other hand, he's not dead, so if he is Paul McCartney, he may be considered
the muse of Paul McCartney, or even possibly the essense of the spirit of Paul McCartney.
Or he may be "plain old" Paul McCartney. Or he may be none of the above.
He may encompass more than "merely" being Paul McCartney, after all.
In other words, he may be an entity who is more complex than any "mere mortal".
Only he can answer that. But he was the guy, imo. The real Apollo
revealed to John the principle,
possibly by way of Apollo C Vermouth, be he a mortal or more than that.
Sorry for the long, convoluted answer, but I couldn't express it otherwise.
That was probably clear as mud.

[mommybird]

Jesus, the Gospel of St Thomas

"There's nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that John knows bible verse.

[The Deceptionist]

Long and convoluted is how I like it.. and plus, you just cleared up a lot of fuzzy points for me.. sometimes we slower members need a bit of a mental jog around the block like that just to spell it out lol. thx

The initial point I had intended to make however was just my surprise in discovering that the line "nothing you can see that isn't shown" seems to me to be a pretty direct paraphrase [if not a paraphrase, then perhaps an inversion.. all the double negatives are rather confusing] of "there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest" which, as it says above, comes from the gospel of St Thomas.

It shouldn't surprise me really, as the song is fairly full of Christian connotations [Love one another, love thy neighbour and all that jazz] but I've never seen a direct connection made between the two passages before. Which I found odd, as they are so similar.

In the bigger picture I don't know what this means, if it has any deeper meaning or whether or not it is even relevant in any way.. I just thought it was quite neat, John taking his cues straight out of the New Testament.. especially when you consider the way the verse sentences are structured:

"For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest" becomes...

"There's nothing you can do that can't be done.
Nothing you can sing that can't be sung..."

"Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown..."

..and so on

also:

"What did you see when you were there? Nothing that doesn't show..."

In light [geddit? ] of what you've just said about ACV perhaps this relates? If, as you postulated, it was Apollo that told John "There's nothing you can see that isn't shown" then did he use Thomas' gospel as a source-point? Or perhaps John made the connection himself, taking the idea sown by Apollo and working it into his own ideas based structurally around the gospel's "there's nothing x that isn't x³", consciously or otherwise. Perhaps they did invert the message using cleverly placed double-negatives. What was it Derek Taylor said about them all being 'very anti-christ' .. or 'the most anti-christ' ?

Perhaps Apollo was the Beatles' Tavistock 'handler' per se [or one of many]? It being his job to plant clues and themes for them to pick up on.. and then transfer to the public...? Or maybe that's pushing it a bit too far...

[mommybird]

Or maybe Apollo is Derek Taylor

[TotalInformation]

It's a point-counterpoint thing.

The chorus professes that all you need is LOVE, it's Lennon bravely carrying on the message of LOVE he and JPM had dedicated themselves to spreading before his death.

The verses express Lennon's bitter side, listing the rules of "the game" he and so many are forced to play by, to pretend they don't know or see anything not explicitly acknowledged by the powers that be. To play "the game" of life and not be assassinated, you can't sing that which can't be sung; you can't let on you know what you're not "supposed" to know...

If you go about manifesting too much of that which is hidden a "lone nut" will pop you off...

[plastic paul]

I'd never seen it like that before TI, and it's typically cynical of you, yet it's also a very likely possibility that that is indeed the meaning behind the lyrics IMO.

[LOVELYRITA]

I think it's really bizarre that people try to find "Christian" themes from Beatle songs.

John Lennon was not a Christian, although articles said he dabbled in it for a couple of weeks. That doesn't mean that his music reflected any Biblical themes. Get real.

Trying to read things into Beatle music, esp. John's compositions as being Biblical symbolisms is as crazy as those fools who are hocking Beatle and Rolling Stone Bible studies based on their songs. It's just an oxymoron.

John was sarcastic and he was tongue in cheek. I think that quite often in his lyrics he purposely put complicated word phrases just to make people think about it and question it.

Really, if one wants to seek for Biblical things, go to the Bible, if you want to listen to the words of a creative man then listen to John's lyrics.

Where did John get this idea "nothing you can see that isn't shown"? Sounds like words from a man who has been there done that, and has been around the block enough times to see everything under the sun. That doesn't make him religious, just observant.

[The Deceptionist]

lovelyrita said:

I think it's really bizarre that people try to find "Christian" themes from Beatle songs.

John Lennon was not a Christian, although articles said he dabbled in it for a couple of weeks. That doesn't mean that his music reflected any Biblical themes. Get real.

Trying to read things into Beatle music, esp. John's compositions as being Biblical symbolisms is as crazy as those fools who are hocking Beatle and Rolling Stone Bible studies based on their songs. It's just an oxymoron.

John was sarcastic and he was tongue in cheek. I think that quite often in his lyrics he purposely put complicated word phrases just to make people think about it and question it.

Really, if one wants to seek for Biblical things, go to the Bible, if you want to listen to the words of a creative man then listen to John's lyrics.

Where did John get this idea "nothing you can see that isn't shown"? Sounds like words from a man who has been there done that, and has been around the block enough times to see everything under the sun. That doesn't make him religious, just observant.

I'm not a religious person myself - perhaps spiritual, but certainly not religious [and definitely not Christian] so just to clarify - I wasn't really looking to find any themes [religious or not] in any song, nor was I implying that John might be a religious man - I was just watching a video on UFOs [completely unrelated topic] when the following was displayed and I thought immediately of 'All You Need is Love'.

"Recognise what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

I think it would probably be more accurate to say I was finding 'Beatles' themes in scriptures than 'Christian' themes in Beatles, but thats by the by. The point I intended to illustrate was not that the song contained any overt or meaningful reference to the Bible, just that the portion in bold was remarkably similar to "there's nothing you can see that isn't shown". Similar enough for me to ponder whether or not they were connected - especially as he parallels his own words again in the single's B-side 'Baby, You're a Rich Man' - "What did you see when you were there? Nothing that doesn't show...".

Now, just because John wasn't a religious man doesn't mean he can't quote the Bible. And just because you quote a line from the New Testament doesn't necessarily mean you're waving a Christian banner about the place [Not that I'm saying he even quoted it directly, if at all - but I'll get to that bit soon]. Prolific lyricist that he was I'm sure he would have been on the look-out for new material anywhere and everywhere and I remember reading somewhere that he was very interested in Jesus - not as a religious figure but as a revolutionary in a historical context. The book I read [I think it was Magic Circles - The Beatles in Dream and History] even went so far as to say that he had at some point developed a bit of a Christ complex following his fascination - but again thats by the by, and I'm taking that last bit with a pinch of salt. From what I can recall John was of the opinion that Jesus was a man with a message and the message was hi-jacked and perverted by Rome for the use of controlling its subjects - which it still does to this day.

So, if John was into Jesus - but not Christianity - does it not then follow that quoting Jesus need not be religious [or even Christian when you think about how refracted 'Christianity' is from its original message]? Following this line of thinking does it not also follow that quoting Jesus in this light was, to John, far more like quoting Che Guevara than Bethlehem's number one son? Like you said: John's style was ever so tongue-in-cheek, so again - does it not follow that John might take great pleasure in quoting Jesus without necessarily even setting foot in the Christian camp? And all the while singing about love for your fellow man etc. That sounds like the kind of skewed duality he would have enjoyed confounding people with; I can picture him cackling away at home in a similar manner to 'let the fuckers work that one out' after writing I Am the Walrus.

It's a point-counterpoint thing.

The chorus professes that all you need is LOVE, it's Lennon bravely carrying on the message of LOVE he and JPM had dedicated themselves to spreading before his death.

The verses express Lennon's bitter side, listing the rules of "the game" he and so many are forced to play by, to pretend they don't know or see anything not explicitly acknowledged by the powers that be. To play "the game" of life and not be assassinated, you can't sing that which can't be sung; you can't let on you know what you're not "supposed" to know...

If you go about manifesting too much of that which is hidden a "lone nut" will pop you off...

Like PP said, I reckon thats spot on. In fact, you just made All You Need is Love my favourite Beatle song of all time. I hadn't seen it that way before either - I kept getting hung up on trying to work out the double negatives... but again, like an onion these songs have many layers; they can be interpreted in so many different ways, who's to say they weren't intended to have multiple meanings, double entendres etc - very John.

****

I think the problem with forums [for me at least] is that its easy to mean what you say, but saying what you mean is a whole different kettle of fish.. [as Alice will be all too happy to tell you] Somewhere in each and every one of my posts the original idea seems to get lost in translation and then, by the time I manage to get back to whatever I'm trying to say I've usually forgo... wait - what?

[LOVELYRITA]

I wasn't commenting on your post as your beliefs, it was observation on some other sites I've visited and it just reminded me when I read your post.

I didn't make it clear.

I can relate to understanding Jesus, but having issues with "religion" as the organized, mechanized worship routine that takes place on Sunday mornings in most "churches", which sets my skin crawling as for the phoneys who pretend to be righteous, but are more judgmental than anything else.

Perhaps that was the issue John experienced in his life. Maybe at some point he saw the "religious "mechanisms" and was tired of the judgmental mentality and was looking for something spiritual but didn't really find it when he was young. Who knows? Maybe he went back looking for it for a brief time and couldn't find what he was looking for. It's kinda hard to find a pearl in a pile of dung.

Maybe this is what we all face at one point or another.

Maybe John understood more about spirituality than most who claim a "religion". Who knows?

But he did have a philosophy, a working man's philosophy. Meaning that he didn't talk like a walking Thesaurus with superfluous terms, but he was deep. It was understanding where he was coming from that helps give insight somewhat to his persona, that is, what he revealed in his music.

[mommybird]

All very true, LR.

[Girl]

Sorry. I have to reply. I'm on my way out, anyways.

How I wish the world would stop perverting the word Christian, until they know what it really means.

The term is used so loosely today, I don't even like saying the word.

I call myself an Apostolic believer.

My faith goes back to the year 1.

Christianity was already ruined at the Council of Nicea in the year 325 AD. We are now 2007, so there is little hope of clearing that up at this point... "Christians" will still be practicing idolatry in regard to the worshipping of/praying to dead saints and statues, baptism will still be by infant sprinkling without choosing for themselves, and the Trinity will still be preached till the end of time. Other denominations will continue to deny the Diety of Christ altogether, and everybody's going to heaven, even the God-haters, ya.

Blessed are the eyes that see. Why, because of something someone read out of a Book, or preached from a pulpit? What I mean by that is, I don't follow this or that because someone else says so. I'm too much of a rebel to follow something blindly.

But when God reveals Himself, you can't help but see!

Kind of like Paul on the road to Damascus...

Am I perfect? HELL, no. Not only am I not perfect, but sometimes I still have a very FOUL mouth... the difference is I have a relationship with God, and I'm working on it. I admit my faults.

I care about what He thinks, I see why things are, and I acknowledge His sovereignty.

In return, He blesses my life in more ways than I can say.

It's not my job to convince. The biggest mistake Christians make is to try to ram their truth down people's throats.

They that seek, find.

And the worst thing you can say is "This is the only right way!"

They that seek, find.

And just because you believe or disbelieve something doesn't make it true or not. In the end, we'll all only know when we get there.

They that seek, find.

[mindgames]

Girl, I am just curious, what is wrong with the "trinity"?

but if truth is truth and the truth is Jesus is the only way, why is it so wrong to say so?
I can see how it could be far worst to let people assume otherwise.

"And the worst thing you can say is "This is the only right way!"

[Girl]

Mindgames, nothing wrong, just when you talk absolutes with people most close their ears. It's a turn-off. Just love them, that's all.

The trinity? That is a sticky subject of the most heated debate amongst Christians themselves... sigh.

God is a Spirit. Therefore you cannot see Him. There are different manifestations of the Spirit, but only one God- in other words, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are not all up there as 3 persons having conversations.

Jesus is God in the Flesh. People get confused and say well why was He praying to Himself?

Yet there are numerous indications where He reveals His true identity.

"He that has seen Me has seen the Father" "I and my Father are One" "Have I been with you so long and you still don't know who I am?"

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the disciples didn't baptize any other way than by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles alike. Don't even bother getting baptized if you aren't going to live the life, and there's no need to baptize innocent children before they are ready to make that commitment.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are only titles, not names. You wouldn't sign a check, Father, Son and Husband. You have to put the name on it.

And like Paul on the road to Damascus, when the Lord called him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" "Who are you, Lord?" and He answered, "I am Jesus, whom you're persecuting."

Who do you think was talking to him?

The name of all 3 is Jesus.

He was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption and the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

He appeared as the burning bush to Moses, and the pillar of cloud by day and fire by night to the Israelites.

As the Saviour, He was our human example.

"I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you." Note, he said, "I".

"If I go, the Father will send the Holy Spirit in my Name."

Why wouldn't the Father send the Holy Spirit in His own name?

It's really not hard to understand if you think about it.

Plus the word trinity doesn't even appear in the Bible. It is man's doctrine.

Well, maybe I should have PM'ed you on this one, but... whatever. ;D

[horseloverphat]

Interesting OP....

"Recognise what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

This reminds me of the old intel adage....

The best way to hide anything is to put it in 'plain sight' right under our very noses.

IOW's nothing IS hidden... it is all there if you have the eyes to see....although maybe not if you choose to go through life with 'Eyes Wide Shut' (a la Stanley Kubrick).


(this is my first post btw, I came across the PID theory several years ago and was never able to dismiss it outright even though it did sound crazy, and now I'm back on it....and i am glad i have found this place as there seem to be some great researchers at this board, I'm pariculalrly interested in the iamphoney series as that is what has led me here...maybe I'll see some of you guys over there!)

[B]

Not a bad first post, horseloverphat!

Girl wrote: "I'm on my way out, anyways."

I hope that doesn't mean you're leaving us! Please stay.
We won't bite, and besides, your input is needed!
And besides, , this may be just the place you'd want to be!

[mindgames]

"Father, Son and Holy Spirit are only titles, not names. You wouldn't sign a check, Father, Son and Husband. You have to put the name on it."

That's good! Thanks for explaining it!

[mystery tour]

Great thread ! I suspect this quote is one of the reasons why the Church suppressed the Gospel of Thomas:

In Thomas v.3, Jesus says,

"...the Kingdom of God is within you... "

There is no mention of hell, etc and perhaps this gospel also influenced"Imagine". I agree with Rita that Lennon was spiritual without the label as such.

Though I wonder how Lennon had access to what was not available to the masses until 1975?

Among other upheavals that occurred during the reign of the Beatles was the so-called Spiritual Revolution, and the the "hippies" the notion of Jesus as enlightened Progressive God-head.
It was actually the hippie movement that spawned the "Jesus Freak" movement which in turn was hijacked by the mostly Fundamentalist "Born Again" Evangelical movement that has given Christianity a bad rap, and in my opinion, rightly so.