Allen Ginsburg (and Sir Paul) Battle of the Skelet

[JoJo]

Allen Ginsberg & Paul McCartney - Ballad of the Skeletons

mysteryboy said:

The man on the far left looks like Beat Poet Alan Ginsburg who told me once that he was hanging around with Pink Floyd and many others of the London Underground during 66-67. I didn't ask him about the Beatles but I would imagine he knew them.
Interesting.

Someone saved me the trouble of tracking it down..

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yX2H-B8YpA

[Mellow Yellow]

So these are the kind of people Sir. Paul hangs out with? The pedofilic homosexaul LSD pushing Allen Ginsberg? Birds of a feather....

[plastic paul]

Really?

Mello that is worrying. I'm too lazy too research, can you please post an account of that?

Ta

[JoJo]

Wiki

[JoJo]

Hung out with John as well:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcshoQ5C71s

[Mellow Yellow]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSA7kGEPhjg

Sounds like somebody copied the tune.... This is a decent song, but I still hate MTV.... Not to be off-topic, but didn't George Harrison support MTV or something?

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

So these are the kind of people Sir. Paul hangs out with? The pedofilic homosexaul LSD pushing Allen Ginsberg? Birds of a feather....

I guess that makes John and the other Beatles the same as well. Not to mention just about anyone of importance during the 60's revolution.
I see that you weren't born yet, and can have no real understanding how the various leaders of the 60's have given you freedoms that you probably take for granted and/or do not recognize.

For historical integrity, the only famous person that I know of who publicaly aggressively encouraged people to take LSD was former College Professor Dr. Timothy Leary.

Regarding Ginsburg being a Pedophile, there is no factual evidence of that: From WIKI: Ginsberg was labeled a pederast, and while there is much evidence in his poetry and his journals that Ginsberg (like his friend William S. Burroughs) loved beautiful teenage boys (see for example, "Sweet Boy Give Me Your Ass"), there are no indications that he ever broke any age-of-consent laws. Ginsberg saw his attraction to youths as the celebration of the beauty and holiness of youth (a celebration of "lambs" or "angels").
As Camille Paglia put it, "Ginsberg's celebration of boy-love was pure and sinless." [2] Like much of his political activism, Ginsberg saw this as a demystification of a baseless taboo."

I can't speak for him personally, as I only met him at the request of the media outlet that I was working for at the time.
But to outright label him as a pedophile (criminal for sure!) is just wrong. I am sure Stamford University wouldn't have did what they did if he had been a pedophile.

The bit about him being a homosexual is the only fact presented in your comment, and the last time I checked , that wasn't a crime either. (except to some rednecks, Republicans and the crack head in the White house who is destroying the planet).

end of sermon.

[Mellow Yellow]

I see that you weren't born yet, and can have no real understanding how the various leaders of the 60's have given you freedoms that you probably take for granted and/or do not recognize.


Christ man, don't be an elitist ass. I have a perfect understanding of these things and I stand by what I say because it is factual information.

[Mellow Yellow]

"Ginsberg (like his friend William S. Burroughs) loved beautiful teenage boys (see for example, "Sweet Boy Give Me Your Ass"), there are no indications that he ever broke any age-of-consent laws. Ginsberg saw his attraction to youths as the celebration of the beauty and holiness of youth (a celebration of "lambs" or "angels").
As Camille Paglia put it, "Ginsberg's celebration of boy-love was pure and sinless."

Ginsberg disgusts me and it is obvious that he was just an pawn in the conspiracy to demoralize and densensitize society.

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

I see that you weren't born yet, and can have no real understanding how the various leaders of the 60's have given you freedoms that you probably take for granted and/or do not recognize.


Christ man, don't be an elitist ass. I have a perfect understanding of these things and I stand by what I say because it is factual information.

I am not trying to be an "elitist ass". (what does that mean, anyway? I often hear that term applied to Liberals by rich ellitist Republicans ;D ) I am trying to keep the facts straight. Neither the Beatles nor Alan Ginsburg were LSD pushers.
They were quite rich and acid was cheaper than a beer.
Another poster asked you, in so many words, where you got your "fact" that Alan Ginsburg was a pedophile.
In fairness to you, I understand that you might be confused between the terms "pedophile" and pedarist.
I don't believe that you'll find anyone or any link that will state that Ginsburg had an insatiable need to have sex with CHILDREN.. (Pedophile).
Sorry if I offended you. I just don't think we need to be spreading misinformation about people who are deceased and cannot defend themselves. (James Paul was a fan of Ginsburg's as well, fyi)

[Mellow Yellow]

An elitist can be applied in many ways, I use it to indicate that someone thinks that they are "elite" or more "elite" than another. Case in point "i was there, you were not, you are wrong/unlearned/unappreciative because you are younger, yadda yadda, something about damn kids and turn that music down"....

The Beatles, John Wayne, and the Pope could have been fans of Ginsburg and it wouldn't make it alright. Ok I know there is a difference between pedoPHILE and pederast, but its not much of one, he still liked young boys and that (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION) is wrong. Therefore I do not like him and judge him harshly, it is my right to not like him if I do not want to. It may not be "politically correct" to call a pederast a pedophile, but I was stating how I saw him. The wiki link is posted so anybody can see for themselves, there is no disinfo.

IMO the Beatles and Alan Gisberg and many in the 60's DID push LSD. Not publicly, but much more subtley.

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

An elitist can be applied in many ways, I use it to indicate that someone thinks that they are "elite" or more "elite" than another. Case in point "i was there, you were not, you are wrong/unlearned/unappreciative because you are younger, yadda yadda, something about damn kids and turn that music down"....

The Beatles, John Wayne, and the Pope could have been fans of Ginsburg and it wouldn't make it alright. Ok I know there is a difference between pedoPHILE and pederast, but its not much of one, he still liked young boys and that (IN MY HUMBLE OPINION) is
wrong. Therefore I do not like him and judge him harshly, it is my right to not like him if I do not want to. It may not be "politically correct" to call a pederast a pedophile, but I was stating how I saw him. The wiki link is posted so anybody can see for themselves, there is no disinfo.

IMO the Beatles and Alan Gisberg and many in the 60's DID push LSD. Not publicly, but much more subtley.

Firstly, I thank you for bringing it to my attention that I am an "elitist ass". I won't bother to ask for an apology as you may very well be correct. It certainly will give me pause before I post here again, if I do. I do not hold your age against you. We all have much to learn from those both older and younger than ourselves.
Pedophiles cannot override a compulsion to have sex with children.
Alan Ginsburg was not a pedophile. If I am not mistaken, he did like teenage "boys" but never slept with underage teens. (keep in mind that Sir George Martin always referred to the Beatles as "the boys".)
Ginsburg did have issues with the age of consent, as do many well- adjusted heterosexuals. I think Ringo sang about that ...
Hey, if he was a pedophile, than I say 'screw him" along with the rest of those creeps. . But I was essentially taking issue with your assumption that because Sir Paul did a video with him, than Sir Paul was by extension of the same cut as Ginsburg. It would then have to follow that Lennon, James Paul, and many others were ' LSD pushing, homosexual pedophiles ' as well.

As far as LSD is concerned, it was the CIA that let the genie out of the bottle, and it was a major screw-up. It was not good to have people in prominent positions (including dosed CIA agents) taking trips and as a result opposing a war that the U.S. had no business being in. (Hmmm. Deja Vu)
It was not in the best interests of the War Machine People of the world having the masses taking an inexpensive drug that propagated critical thinking, insight, and feelings of empathy for fellow humans. So they introduced BAD acid and pushed Art Linkletter's son out of a window to add even more bad publicity.
Which reminds me: an attorney/journalist who spent the last decade studying suspicious deaths of journalists who opposed the right-wing agenda, fell nine stories to his death last month. He became instantly famous by becoming the first White House Press Corps member to ask if the outing of NOC CIA agent Valarie Plame amounted to treason. But that's another issue, and we will probably soon invade Iran for their oil reserves while keeping the attention of the PEOPLE away from acts of treason in the White House. (Libby trial)
In closing, I can't help but wonder that if the man in the White House had only taken LSD once instead of becoming an alcoholic and coke-head , that 3000 US troops and a half-million Iraqi citizens would still be alive, and 40,000 US troops would not be permanently disabled.
That being said, I do not endorse the use of LSD or any other illegal substance unless it is administered by a Psych doc licensed by the government to do so, which is again, another story...

on edit: One more thing. I think you have your conspiracy and co-conspirators mixed up.
You said "Ginsberg disgusts me and it is obvious that he was just an pawn in the conspiracy to demoralize and densensitize society."

I say that morality and decency pretty much ended with Bobbie Kennedy's assassination and that if anything, the were MORE moral and ethical than they are now. But not for the reasons you give.
The assassinations of the 60's, the Vietnam War, the influx of the numbing drugs heroin and cocaine; shadow governments; 9/11 and the subsequent raping of the Bill of Rights; the Invasion and butchery of an unarmed nation; the huge amount of violence on TV and in video games; the suppression of sexuality and it's ensuing results, the fact that Al Gore was actually the winner of the 2000 election (message: your vote doesn't count);
the fact that America and it's news media is run by a few corporations, thereby contributing to a fascist state; and the willful ignorance of the government regarding the total devastation of the environment; these things, and so much more, are linked together by the same group of people and these items are truly what is causing the collective numbness ,despair, and demoralization that plague the masses. LSD, according to most serious studies I've read, produced a heightened sense of morality and sensitivity in the user. Users were just as likely to listen to Mozart as listen to rock rock and folk. Compare that to current times, where the drug of "choice" is the numbing Cocaine, and the "music" is a steady drone clone of numbing, repetitive beats with violent and perverted sexual lyrics for the subconscious.

And if you think that the Media is Liberal, you have been brainwashed. (thank you, Mr. Harrison) The media was complicit with the White House in lying to the people that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, and the fact that Gore did in fact win the 2000 election. And that the important election issues are not Climate Change and the the erosion of Rights, but rather whether or not gays should be allowed to get married.
I do appreciate your view that people have been manipulated (and I believe they continue to be manipulated even more than ever), I just think that you are betting on the wrong horse, if you will.
Peace.





Without going out of my door
You can know all things of earth
With out looking out of my window
You could know the ways of heaven

The farther one travels
The less one knows
The less one really knows

St. George

[beatlies]

Speaking of CIA-LSD, here's a famous early Twilight Zone with the theme of doubles and dopplegangers, and an attractive blonde woman. Did they have Doris Day in mind? With "Mirror Image" the Sixties are off and running .....



www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euen_YXOKc

[mysteryboy]

beatlies said:

Speaking of CIA-LSD, here's a famous early Twilight Zone with the theme of doubles and dopplegangers, and an attractive blonde woman. Did they have Doris Day in mind? With "Mirror Image" the Sixties are off and running .....



www.youtube.com/watch?v=-euen_YXOKc

Ah, the late, great Rod Serling. He died much too young, Thanks for the link, Beatlies. I'd never seen that episode.

[mysteryboy]

I just thought I'd bring up the pros and cons of Wikipedia. I do love the site, however, it is a work in progress (much to it's credit) and sometimes misinformation appears. The use of citations is regarding suspicious facts is a great feature. For example, WIKI incorrectly listed Dolphin pioneer researcher John Lilly as a participant in the CIA's MK-Ultra experiments. It correctly had a citation next to that sentence and has since been removed.
I am not writing this to defend or attack Alan Ginsburg. If one has the time, one should always look for related links and sources on any given target of research.
Here is a good example of the benefits of this method. If you click the link below and read the Official Obituary of John Lilly, you will actually get a list of his many contributions to our world. Then compare it to the Wiki entry.
The Wikipedia article seems to focus too much on his LSD research while failing to mention that he was paid by the Health Institutes for that research. Wikipedia also fails to mention that Lilly invented the peak flow meter (he never bothered to patent it) and many other inventions/discoveries.

EDIT: Here is the link to Lilly's Official Biography/OBIT: www.ace.to/tribute.html

And Wiki's entry:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Lilly

[Mellow Yellow]

You are correct about wiki. In fact my English professor won't even allow me to cite from it because the University has deemed it to be "unreliable". It is a great place to start research (according to my teachers) but we still aren't allowed to cite from it.

I was reading about LSD Thumbprinting and it sounded quite strange. You spread a whole vial of crystalized LSD out and stick your thumb in it, and then lick said thumb. So you are getting a double dose (one from through the skin and another by licking it). Users claim that you "die" and that your ego is totally dead and once you come back you are changed forever.

This sounds really bad, and what is worse is that they never tell "how" one is changed. It struck me as odd that on so many unrelated sites they all used the word "dead" to describe what happens...... Why would anyone want that?

[JoJo]

I dunno, it really has to do with how many grams of "lysergic" are contained in the dosing, the method of delivery is irrelevant. I worked with this rather crazy dude back in high school who claimed to have once injected it, saying it was better as you would know right away how it was going to affect you.. Yeesh.

About the topic of those in the media advocating drug use, eh.. what they are able to do to influence is but a drop in the bucket compared to the power one's friends/peer group can wield. I guarantee you most who picked up a joint, cigarette, tab or what have you were introduced to it by a friend or group of friends. (at least that's my experience in the matter..) *ahem*

Users claim that you "die" and that your ego is totally dead and once you come back you are changed forever.

Well...people tend to exaggerate and it makes the experience sound more dramatic. Friends of mine who fooled around with it in college are now working boring 9-5 jobs with quite intact egos.. There are also those who I knew growing up whose drug use was part of a downward spiral, they were on a path that led to tragic results anyway.

[fourthousandholes]

MelloYello wrote:
"Users claim that you "die" and that your ego is totally dead and once you come back you are changed forever."

Well I don't know whether it could be said that that happens every time one uses acid, but
it's probably true that "you are changed forever", because there is some brain damage involved,
and there have been some studies that suggest that using it more than about seven times or so
permanently alters brainwave patterns. There's a chapter in one of the "Seth Material" books by
Jane Roberts that addresses LSD. Seth claims that the soul of the person on acid
interprets the experience as physical dying, and it triggers physical changes in the body
to try to counteract the death.
He says that if people knew the shock the soul feels, they would never use it, because the soul signals
the body to try to adapt to the seeming reality of the drug-induced world.
Of course, the "Seth material" comes from the world of the occult, so of course it must be satanic,
diabolical, and linked to Faul in someway.

On a presumably unrelated note: I had Rod Serling as a "visiting professor" at Ithaca College, and
his fondness for cigarettes probably did him in. He smoked all the time.
But he spoke with the eloquence of God.

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

You are correct about wiki. In fact my English professor won't even allow me to cite from it because the University has deemed it to be "unreliable". It is a great place to start research (according to my teachers) but we still aren't allowed to cite from it.

I was reading about LSD Thumbprinting and it sounded quite strange. You spread a whole vial of crystalized LSD out and stick your thumb in it, and then lick said thumb. So you are getting a double dose (one from through the skin and another by licking it). Users claim that you "die" and that your ego is totally dead and once you come back you are changed forever.

This sounds really bad, and what is worse is that they never tell "how" one is changed. It struck me as odd that on so many unrelated sites they all used the word "dead" to describe what happens...... Why would anyone want that?

Interesting, and one of the reasons I would never encourage anyone to take LSD. Their is too much misinformation and too many people who do not appreciate the serious nature of the drug and it's sometimes horrific side-affects.
I'll expand on the ego-death subject when I have more time to give you a better response. I will say that before the internet, I had long ago assumed that the Paul is Dead "hoax" was a nod to Paul's former self/ego, as he was the last to try the drug.
Carl Jung felt that it was not a good idea for Westerners to experience what the Eastern Religions pursue as the ultimate goal, that is , ego-death, or , "Nirvana" . I agree with Jung.
Thanks for keeping the dialogue going, Mello.

[Mellow Yellow]

Interesting, John claimed he and George had both did LSD "thousands" of times. I wonder what sorts of damages their brains withstood......

Of course, the "Seth material" comes from the world of the occult, so of course it must be satanic,
diabolical, and linked to Faul in someway.
My sarcasm detector just broke......

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

Interesting, John claimed he and George had both did LSD "thousands" of times. I wonder what sorts of damages their brains withstood......

Of course, the "Seth material" comes from the world of the occult, so of course it must be satanic,
diabolical, and linked to Faul in someway.
My sarcasm detector just broke......

Hmmm, It used to be said that it caused chromosome damage.
Brain damage now? I've seen too many famous people go on to produce their most brilliant works after taking many trips, and seen same people produce children who are gifted in higher than average numbers.
Drinking is a tried and true killer of brain cells and actually affects all cells.

[mysteryboy]

For the record: if you are a first time visitor this thread was started as a result of another thread dealing with the band Klattu and their possible role in the PWR/PID mystery. They were a band whose first album had the feel and sound of a Beatles albumn, circa 1967-1968. The album had no names credited and was distributed by Capitol/EMI.
One of their later album covers has an illustration depicting several people who bare a striking likeness to certain famous people of the 1960's. The writer felt that Jerry Garcia and Alan Ginsburg were easily identifiable.
Alan Ginsburg was someone who had a significant influence on the Beatles and many other famous people. (Just to keep this PWR related)

[mystery tour]

Hello Agent Mike.

[Jude]

mystery said:

Hello Agent Mike.

....eh?

[jarvitronics]

Allen Ginsberg saw The Beatles play on August 22, 1965. Lennon greeted him from the stage. Ginsberg wrote a poem about it:

Portland Coliseum
by Allen Ginsberg

A brown piano in diamond
white spotlight
Leviathan auditorium
iron run wired
hanging organs, vox
black battery
A single whistling sound of ten thousand children's
larynxes asinging
pierce the ears
and following up the belly
bliss the moment arrived

Apparition, four brown English
jacket christhair boys
Goofed Ringo battling bright
white drums
Silent George hair patient
Soul horse
Short black-skulled Paul
with the guitar
Lennon the Captain, his mouth
a triangular smile,
all jump together to End
some tearful memory song
ancient-two years,
The million children
the thousand words
bounce in their seats, bash
each other's sides, press
legs together nervous
Scream again & claphand
become one Animal
in the New World Auditorium
--hands waving myriad
snakes of thought
screetch beyond hearing

while a line of police with
folded arms stands
Sentry to contain the red
sweatered ecstasy
that rises upward to the
wired roof.


-j