Dovetail joint,wikipedia

[mysteryboy]

"...The dovetail joint probably pre-dates written history. Some of the earliest known examples of the dovetail joint are in furniture entombed with mummies dating from First Dynasty of ancient Egypt, as well the tombs of Chinese emperors..."

Nothing about guitars in a very thorough description on at wikipedia.com

However, I could see how the design could be used in guitars, but found no references to that application in my google searches. Given the context of the rest of the song, I would say it applied to Egyptian tombs, or tombs in general.

Also, "Glass Onion" was the name Lennon originally gave Badfinger, who later rejected it. Still, an interesting name for a group and for a lyric. "Looking through a "Badfinger" wasn't used in the lyrics so I would guess it's one of several items others have already described relative to PID/PWR.

Apologies if this has been posted before.


on edit: whatever the intent of the lyric, it is a reference to CARPENTRY.

[mysteryboy]

The song was recorded on...September 11, 1968...

[fourthousandholes]

"Well here's another place you can be
Listen to me.
Fixing a hole in the ocean
Trying to make a dove-tail joint-yeah
Looking through a glass onion."

My inclination is to think that BeatlePaul at TKIN has this figured out right in this thread:

60if.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=60ifclues&action=display&thread=1064668996&page=3

reply #74 (see map and photos)

Either the land masses look as if they would match like a dovetail joint does,
or (more likely) the area shown represents the "hole in the ocean", and John, trying to make
a dovetail joint for Paul's casket as he looks through a looking glass (a "glass onion").
There have been threads about "glass onion". It's a magnifying glass, or an underwater window on a ship
or submarine.

[mysteryboy]

mysteryboy said:

"...The dovetail joint probably pre-dates written history. Some of the earliest known examples of the dovetail joint are in furniture entombed with mummies dating from First Dynasty of ancient Egypt, as well the tombs of Chinese emperors..."

Nothing about guitars in a very thorough description on at wikipedia.com

However, I could see how the design could be used in guitars, but found no references to that application in my google searches. Given the context of the rest of the song, I would say it applied to Egyptian tombs, or tombs in general.

Also, "Glass Onion" was the name Lennon originally gave Badfinger, who later rejected it. Still, an interesting name for a group and for a lyric. "Looking through a "Badfinger" wasn't used in the lyrics so I would guess it's one of several items others have already described relative to PID/PWR.

Apologies if this has been posted before.


on edit: whatever the intent of the lyric, it is a reference to CARPENTRY.

Yes, I am familiar with the site and noticed recently that some of my ideas and discoveries have been posted by others over there. Perhaps I should post there as well and rip my own self off.

I am not saying that Plasticpaul's idea was one of them, nor that I agree with that particular one from him.

I thought it would be good to post the actual definition, but the real interesting thing here is the date that the song was recorded. I am surprised that you didn't think the fact that the recording date of "Glass Onion" mirrors the date on the Sgt. Pepper drum was at all ...interesting.

[fourthousandholes]

Yeah, that went right by me.

[Jai Guru Deva]

Nothing about guitars? I don't know where else you were looking, but there is such a thing as a dovetail joint on a guitar.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_neck

"There are basically four ways of attaching the neck to the body using glued joints:

With a dovetail joint, where the dovetail is cut into the end of the neck assembly and fits into a mating mortise in the instrument's endblock. This is typically used on acoustic and hollow-body electric guitars."

[mysteryboy]

fourthousandholes said:

Yeah, that went right by me.

No worries.

[mysteryboy]

jaigurudeva said:

Nothing about guitars? I don't know where else you were looking, but there is such a thing as a dovetail joint on a guitar.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_neck

"There are basically four ways of attaching the neck to the body using glued joints:

With a dovetail joint, where the dovetail is cut into the end of the neck assembly and fits into a mating mortise in the instrument's endblock. This is typically used on acoustic and hollow-body electric guitars."

Actually, I used the same source (amongst others) as you did. However, to the best of my knowledge, John, like myself, was a guitarist, not a guitar maker. So I searched for what a dovetail
joint is, not it's many uses. So I did not add the word guitar in my search. I was more interested in the origins of the word and not it's applications to guitar making. And given the the song's nature, in which Lennon is announcing that he is giving "another clue to you all", I think that the origins of the word are more relevant.
But thanks for the correction regarding guitars.

And again, another clue for you as well: "Glass Onion" was recorded on 9/11.

[Jai Guru Deva]

So John was neither a guitar maker or a carpenter and the origins of the word "dovetail joint" may be useful. However, considering the fact he did played guitar, and thus he probably would have been very much aware of what a dovetail joint on a guitar. I wouldn't so easily dismiss the idea he first thought about an analogy between fixing a dovetail joint on a guitar and Paul breaking his neck!

[mysteryboy]

jaigurudeva said:

So John was neither a guitar maker or a carpenter and the origins of the word "dovetail joint" may be useful. However, considering the fact he did played guitar, and thus he probably would have been very much aware of what a dovetail joint on a guitar. I wouldn't so easily dismiss the idea he first thought about an analogy between fixing a dovetail joint on a guitar and Paul breaking his neck!

As you failed to mention the analogy in your initial response, I didn't dismiss that notion at all. Now that you've brought it to my attention, I must state that I think your analogy is an excellent one!

But what really raises my eyebrows is the new discovery (for me) that he chose September 11 to record it, and I am sorry if this fact has been discussed in great length before.

[JoJo]

It is interesting, and I don't think anyone noticed it before. To review, John referenced SFF, Walrus, Lady Madonna, Fool On The Hill and Fixing a Hole. There were 34 takes, but John decided take #33 was the best, overlaying vocals and other instruments in the next couple of days.

There is one boot version that ends with the sound of glass smashing, and a crowd cheering as an announcer shouts: "It's a goal!"

[TotalInformation]

The important point is that a dovetail joint is really hard to make; i.e., that John was having a helluva time keeping together the BEATLES w/o JPM

one boot version that ends with the sound of glass smashing, and a crowd cheering as an announcer shouts: "It's a goal!"

That was the version on Anthology. It makes an interesting counterpoint to "block that kick!" in the song that ultimately ended the album, ne c'est pas?

[Mellow Yellow]

If Revolution 9 can be taken as a flashback/stream of consciousness type of story, then the block that kick makes alot of since. I would personally take it as "they" whoever they are, are wanting the information of JPM's death to be blocked. The song Glass Onion is a "goal" because it throws so many clues out there, it is breaking through...... to the other side.

[TotalInformation]

You win the kewpie doll!

[mysteryboy]

melloyello said:

If Revolution 9 can be taken as a flashback/stream of consciousness type of story, then the block that kick makes alot of since. I would personally take it as "they" whoever they are, are wanting the information of JPM's death to be blocked. The song Glass Onion is a "goal" because it throws so many clues out there, it is breaking through...... to the other side.

Most excellent, Mellow!! And to take this song, in which he was announcing that he was giving clues, and then record it on the same date of the epitaph on the Pepper drum...it goes to intent, the one thing the skeptical sheepel cannot argue against. I've yet to find a graphics art pro who is not amazed at the mirror clue and it's impossibilty of it being an accident. I have actually heard people say that the drum bit was just a coincidence.

And thanks, JoJo, for the info on the alternate take!

[Doc]

totalinformation said:

The important point is that a dovetail joint is really hard to make; i.e., that John was having a helluva time keeping together the BEATLES w/o JPM

one boot version that ends with the sound of glass smashing, and a crowd cheering as an announcer shouts: "It's a goal!"

That was the version on Anthology. It makes an interesting counterpoint to "block that kick!" in the song that ultimately ended the album, ne c'est pas?

Like the joints in the wood of a Bass guitar.

The interlocking segments of wood between that kind of dovetail joint lock two items togetheras one, endowing strength to the "connection" to prevent the splitting of the two pieces. The idea is to render the sum of parts, i.e. wooden components, indivisible. If the joints fail it will all come apart. The secret is in the tight overlap.

But did the Hofner use a dovetail joint? Not till the late 60's, it seems....:

www.hillmanweb.com/hillgt11.html

find this scrolling down:

Perhaps the best thing about Hofners is the way the necks are attached to the bodies.
Until to late 60's, Hofner used a tapered mortice joint, with no dovetail. This kind of
joint tends to creep with time, given string pull and exposure to humidity. Old Hofners
almost always require neck resets, which are incredibly easy to do as a result of the
simple joint. Hey, a neck reset every thirty years keeps the doctor away ... and keeps
prices nice and low, where I like them.

A neck reset every thirty years keeps the Doc away?

Well I stopped making house calls LONG ago...........

Bodies
There were two basic Hofner bodies, most easily compared to Gibson’s ES-175 /
L4 size and its ES-350 / L5 body sizes. Hofner also introduced a larger size in 1960,
although it is much less often seen. These three Hofner shapes have the following
approximate dimensions:

width across bottom bout 16" 17" 18"
width across top bout 12" 12" 13"
length of body 20" 20" 21"
depth (fullbody) 3" 3" 3"

Catalogue information is vague in this regard. Different models based on these bodies
are described as, for instance:

width across bottom bout 16.5" 17" 17.5" or 18"
length of body 20.5" 20.5" 21.25" or 20.5"
depth (fullbody) 3.5" 3" 3.25"

"Club" guitars had small bodies:

width across bottom bout 13"
width across top bout 9 1/2"
length of body 17 1/8"
depth 2"

Bodies were always built with laminated backs and sides. Tops were either solid
spruce or laminated, depending on a variety of factors. These laminates were three
ply (eventually Hofner used five-ply) and were lightly fabricated, resulting in
lightweight and responsive guitars. Solid bent hardwood kerfing was used and
neckblocks and endblocks were made of spruce. Necks were glued into endblocks
using the above-mentioned tapered mortise joints and violin-style tongues. Two large
bass bars or struts were fitted to the undersides of the tops in a non-parallel
arrangement, converging toward the neckblock.

[Doc]

fourthousandholes said:

"Well here's another place you can be
Listen to me.
Fixing a hole in the ocean
Trying to make a dove-tail joint-yeah
Looking through a glass onion."

My inclination is to think that BeatlePaul at TKIN has this figured out right in this thread:

60if.proboards21.com/index.cgi?board=60ifclues&action=display&thread=1064668996&page=3

reply #74 (see map and photos)

Either the land masses look as if they would match like a dovetail joint does,
or (more likely) the area shown represents the "hole in the ocean", and John, trying to make
a dovetail joint for Paul's casket as he looks through a looking glass (a "glass onion").
There have been threads about "glass onion". It's a magnifying glass, or an underwater window on a ship
or submarine.

Also, you can hear "fixing a hole in the ocean" a couple of different ways: either the hole you are fixing is in the ocean (illogical), or you are at sea when your boat springs a leak. Obviously, to keep from sinking and going under water, you'll have to patch the hole, WHILE you are in the ocean.

Are dovetail joints involved in boat building?


209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:qfZB4aewR-kJ:godot.unisa.edu.au/bilby/index.php%3Fcat%3D3+repair+boat+bottom+dovetail+joint&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

Scarfing! At last! Finally, it was time to get the timber ready for planking the hull. Scarfing has been the step which we’ve been the most anxious about (other than building the mast, and we’re still hoping that we know what we’re doing by then). Because the boat is longer than any one sheet of plywood, we needed to join multiple sheets together end-to-end. There are, as discussed previously, at least three options (and I’ve since found a fourth). Butt joints are very simple to do, but sacrifice considerable strength, as there is very little surface area to glue. You can improve their strength by adding another block to the joint, (indeed, this is probably essential), but the thicker joint won’t bend as well as the rest of the final plank. The half-lap joint looks both difficult and not that strong, although it is clearly much stronger than the butt joint. A dovetail joint (along with the finer “finger joint") is easier than the half-lap joint to make and stronger than the butt joint.

But how do you patch a boat?

www.awcla.com/glossary.html?show=p



Patch A repair made by inserting and securely gluing a sound piece of wood of the same species in place of a defect that has been removed. The edges are cut clean and sharp and fit tightly, with no voids. "Boat" patches are oval-shaped with sides tapering in each direction to a point or to a small rounded end. "Router" patches have parallel sides and rounded ends. "Sled" patches are rectangular with feathered ends.

everything2.com/index.pl?node=Glass%20Onion


Who knows. Maybe John really was just thinking, "Let the poor f****** just try and figure this one out."

And we are still guessing. John Lennon. The Premiere Lyric-Clue Sadist of All Time.
Does that make some of us Clueless Masochists? Our critics may say so. But let us see ourselves as Students of Beatleology, 103.

Perhaps one day they will teach that at Harvard.

[fourthousandholes]

"Perhaps one day they will teach that at Harvard."

I do believe you're right. It's already being taught on-line:

herbergeronline.asu.edu/beatlesinternet/syllabus.pdf