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Post by matchbox on Aug 30, 2004 21:51:09 GMT -5
Athough changing the length of your giutar strap will change the position of the guitar on your body, there is one thing that will not change noticably over the years, and that is technique. If you watch any musician over the years, they will have the same mannerisms and hand positions. The three pics above are from L to R Hard Days Night 1964, Hello Goodbye Video 1967, and Concert at Budokan, Tokyo 1966. Another thing to note would be the shape of his left hand, both while plucking the strings with his fingers and while using a pick. The positions he uses in the Hello Goodbye pic and the Budokan pic are practically identical to the letter, particularly the way his left arm and hand are positioned, not to mention his finger position. The three pics above are from L to R Help! 1965, The Cavern Club 1999, and Let It Be 1969. Note how almost perfectly identical the positions are between the Help! pic and the Cavern Club pic, particularly his right thumb and index finger. 35 years separate these pictures. The last three pics are from L to R The Cavern Club 1999, Help! 1965, and Let It Be 1969. Hand position and technique are like a fingerprint to a musician. Paul's musical fingerprint is very clear and consistant over the years.
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Post by LarryC on Aug 30, 2004 22:25:50 GMT -5
LarryC cries out..."BANDWIDTH! I NEED MORE BANDWIDTH!" HAHA! Dang, JoJo, this thread is challenging! Dial up stinks! I will borrow these two pics from DarkHorse for this post, hope you don't mind DH... I've read comments about the height at which Paul is wearing his bass between these two pics...as well as a comment about John's in a subsequent post. Perhaps one of the reasons the bass is higher up in the Revolution pic is because he's using a different type strap. You will notice the pick guard is not present on his Hofner in the Revolution pic and this is key to the strap. Paul's Hofners never had the guitar strap peg installed on the neck-side of the body and in earlier times he used the pick guard to run the end of his strap through. After the pic guard was removed he had to start attaching the strap up on the headstock...later he eventually got around to having a peg placed back down in the area where the neck joins the body of the guitar. This will make a difference in how the guitar is slung on your shoulders and how low it hangs...ref John Lennon playing the acoustic Gibson in the opening Help! song in the movie. The darn thing doesn't like much being under his chin with that headstock strap configuration. Another note about John is that he would adjust the height of his guitar depending on the type of song he was going to be playing. If it involved a lot of low-end bar chord alternating boogie riffs, he would raise it up so his hand would be more comfortable while holding those chord positions. The Revolution song has this type of chord pattern throughout. Guitar players know what I'm talking about and will be able to relate. I watched a segment of John performing on...and I may be wrong about this...The Mike Douglas show? He played a couple of songs with Chuck Berry, and one of the songs they played together was, I believe, Johnny Be Goode, which is loaded with the low-end bar chord alternating boogie patterns. John had his Les Paul almost up to his chest for that song. * * *Ah-hah! I just happened to notice the middle picture in the bottom row in matchbox's post above...you can clearly see how Paul used to attach his strap in earlier times. I remember reading somewhere how the pick guard was involved somehow, but you can't really see much of THAT in this pic except that the strap appears to run under the near end of the finger board and under the pick guard. I'm sure it probably looked sort of silly without the guard covering it...or maybe he just decided to stop using this method for attaching it...or maybe his strap broke...who knows. But the location of where the far end of the strap is attached WILL make a difference.
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Post by kazu on Aug 31, 2004 4:37:33 GMT -5
Well. In a short rebuttle to Jojo's height images. I would first like to look at the pre66 image in the studio where the Beatles are far in the background. The camera is higher that their heads and Paul's a couple of inches closer, yet it is admitted he seems a bit taller than George. But if he is also a few inches closer to the camera and the camera is above head level, then he is also appears shorter than he really is. This is not to say that Paul is really taller than George. I do not think he is. I just don't trust Georges ability to stand upright in any given photo. www.mousefight.com/faul/jg-tall1.gif[/img] In the image above, even if John's boots are taller than George, George is incredibly shorter than John. George just doesn't stand straight most of the time. Secondly, The Hello Goodbye video... George had a tendancy for 4 things while standing. 1: Bending his knees. 2: Stepping one foot in front of the other. 3: Pointing his toes in different directions. 4: Leaning on one leg. It is pretty clear to me that George has on foot forward and is leaning on his rear leg in the Hello Goodbye video. When I do that, I automatically lose an inch ni height. Add that to hunching over a large guitar. If the original video is not cropped, then the camera is close to head level. Paul is a couple of inches closer to the camera. This would make him bigger. Kind if like this. www.mousefight.com/faul/widepaul1.gif[/img] I do admit that Paul does seem taller more often during the pepper/MMT time, but then there are times he is not, so I personally believe there may be a different explanation than PID. But I like Jojo's style and research. *** Darn, I sort of melded 2 posts of mine. Some of the explanation here is also in the posts here. invanddis.proboards29.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1093511690&start=15Sorry.
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Post by eyesbleed on Aug 31, 2004 8:01:05 GMT -5
they will have the same mannerisms and hand positions. [ Well hand positions can be learned, especially when ya have as much free time as Faul had. But where did the mannerisms go? The glowing love of what he was doing & the overflowing enthusiasm that jumps out of the tv screen during the Sullivan performances disappears completely. You simply can not find that again after 66.... anywhere.
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Post by Morph on Aug 31, 2004 11:01:59 GMT -5
Must be John was also replaced. He's holding his guitar much higher too. He is? He's holding a larger guitar, I can see that. The Sullivan guitar seems lower due to different color contrast on the body.
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Post by matchbox on Aug 31, 2004 11:58:02 GMT -5
Well hand positions can be learned, especially when ya have as much free time as Faul had. anywhere. The hand positions could be faked for still photos, but it would not remain perfectly consistant in every recorded live performance over a 45 year period. And it IS PERFECTLY CONSISTANT in every live video or photograph of Paul playing live I've ever seen. As for the overflowing enthusiasm when performing, The Beatles were a product whose image was crafted by Brian. Once he was gone, the Beatles just became themselves.
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Post by eyesbleed on Aug 31, 2004 21:57:23 GMT -5
As for the overflowing enthusiasm when performing, The Beatles were a product whose image was crafted by Brian. Once he was gone, the Beatles just became themselves. No way. I totally disagree with that. What JPM had was natural. He wasn't lovin' it that much & beeming with enthusiasm because somebody told him to. He wasn't able to play those complex parts & never even acknowledge that bass he was playin' while singin & lookin' at the camera (or audience) just because Brian wanted it. Sorry but that is total nonsense. You want "consistantly holding & playing an instrument" etc, just go check out one of the better Beatle tribute bands. Not one of'em but all 4 will have the mannerisms down to the smallest detail. They learned how to play their instruments just like each Beatle. They even have the facial looks fairly close..... And these guys are just makin' average money... no big deal.
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Post by DarkHorse on Aug 31, 2004 22:07:28 GMT -5
I agree 100% with eyesbleed, especially that last part.
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Post by kazu on Sept 1, 2004 1:26:42 GMT -5
I agree that the enthusiasm was gone. A few years ago, I had an experience where my best friend of more than 10 years and I had a falling out. We worked together in a field we both loved. The damage was pretty much unreconcilable and involved many behind the scenes underhanded deals and litigation. If the deterioration of the Beatles is as bad as what was written about it, then I can understand how he could lose the love of doing it. How can any of use know or judge this?
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Post by DarkHorse on Sept 1, 2004 8:50:00 GMT -5
Well it deteriorated after one fateful event in September of 1966.
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Post by LarryC on Sept 1, 2004 10:30:17 GMT -5
The hand positions could be faked for still photos, but it would not remain perfectly consistant in every recorded live performance over a 45 year period. And it IS PERFECTLY CONSISTANT in every live video or photograph of Paul playing live I've ever seen. As for the overflowing enthusiasm when performing, The Beatles were a product whose image was crafted by Brian. Once he was gone, the Beatles just became themselves. I think one of the main points of that photo series has been underemphasized and lost...yes it IS about finger position, but it's also about the shape of the fingers and thumb and how they appear as they rest on the neck and strings. THIS attribute cannot be faked or mimmicked as all of our individual fingers and hands have a certain uniqueness. Although you could be playing a chord or notes with the same finger position as anybody else, your hand and fingers and theirs will have a different look. Maybe this is something only guitar players would notice? I don't know, but I certainly notice this because I have learned to play loads of songs on the guitar (and continue to learn) from watching many different people play, analizing their movements and finger positions, picking styles, etc. So based upon THAT, when I look at the right hand in these photos I see the same hand in each one. The best comparison is to watch the motion in the segments from which these pictures were taken. Study the movements, form, and shape of his fingers in Hard Days Night and Help, then do the same with the post-1966 video(s) of your choice...and if you also play the guitar or bass, study it from the standpoint that you are trying to learn to play what he's playing and you will see and understand what I'm talking about.
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Post by matchbox on Sept 1, 2004 14:23:49 GMT -5
No way. I totally disagree with that. What JPM had was natural. He wasn't lovin' it that much & beeming with enthusiasm because somebody told him to. He wasn't able to play those complex parts & never even acknowledge that bass he was playin' while singin & lookin' at the camera (or audience) just because Brian wanted it. Sorry but that is total nonsense. You want "consistantly holding & playing an instrument" etc, just go check out one of the better Beatle tribute bands. Not one of'em but all 4 will have the mannerisms down to the smallest detail. They learned how to play their instruments just like each Beatle. They even have the facial looks fairly close..... And these guys are just makin' average money... no big deal. I guess my explaination kind of sucked. I guess I'll just say that the live footage of the Beatles, the majority of it from '63 through '66 showed the height of Beatlemania with capacity crowds filled with screaming girls. There was so much energy in those shows that it's very natural for the band to reflect that in their performances. All four of them. As for the mannerisms. It's easy to dress like the Beatles, use the same instruments and bounce up and down like them. But there is no way any of the bass players in those tribute bands would have the exact same hand position at all times as Paul. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The hand positions that a guitarist or bass player uses while performing are like a fingerprint of that performer. And Paul has remained perfectly consistant in every live performance I have ever seen. The photos posted previously in this thread show that fact very conclusively.
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Post by LarryC on Sept 1, 2004 18:05:23 GMT -5
But there is no way any of the bass players in those tribute bands would have the exact same hand position at all times as Paul. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The hand positions that a guitarist or bass player uses while performing are like a fingerprint of that performer. And Paul has remained perfectly consistant in every live performance I have ever seen. The photos posted previously in this thread show that fact very conclusively. Thank you matchbox...I think that is what I've been trying to say as well. And just because an artist takes an occaisional glance down at his fingerboard doesn't necessarily mean they are making a conscious effort to hit the right notes, either. Sometimes you do it without even thinking about it. You can see John doing it in many of the pre-1967 performances on the same songs you see him never looking in others. Sometimes it's done unconsciously. And something else to consider on this subject is the cameras were not always on the same one of them any more than they were the others so there are moments we don't see if they are looking down or not. There are some really great tribute bands out there, but none of them are able to 'BE' the Beatles no matter how closely they mimmick them. You can readily see the differences in mannerisms and playing technique.
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Post by kazu on Sept 2, 2004 2:01:01 GMT -5
I see. The Live performances was differnent. All 4 of them, including Paul, seemed more enthusiastic because they reflected the excitement of the audience. After 66, the recordings show they are not as excited. There was no huge audience.
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Post by eyesbleed on Sept 2, 2004 7:28:13 GMT -5
I see. The Live performances was differnent. All 4 of them, including Paul, seemed more enthusiastic because they reflected the excitement of the audience. After 66, the recordings show they are not as excited. There was no huge audience. There is a mid 66 interview with John (somewhere) where the interviewer asks him about future tours, & John is as excited as ever about future touring. There is no mention of the new music being too complicated or the crowds being too loud. SOMETHING drastic happened over the next 2-3 months & it wasn't drugs, that was already a factor. I always have & always will say that if JPM was still with them, they would never have stopped touring in the first place. The audiences would've still been there. So why was there no audience? Coz they stopped touring. Why did they stop touring? The explanaition given is simply idiotic, they quit touring coz the lead Beatles was gone. That is the ONLY reason. The fictional Beatles history doesn't make any sense until you factor in PID.
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Post by revolver on Sept 2, 2004 13:20:34 GMT -5
But there is no way any of the bass players in those tribute bands would have the exact same hand position at all times as Paul. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The hand positions that a guitarist or bass player uses while performing are like a fingerprint of that performer. And Paul has remained perfectly consistant in every live performance I have ever seen. The photos posted previously in this thread show that fact very conclusively. You're forgetting that Paul had to learn to play left-handed bass from scratch. He had no previous technique to unlearn. So he could learn to mimic Paul's technique probably better than an experienced musician who already had his own style.
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Post by LarryC on Sept 2, 2004 14:05:26 GMT -5
You're forgetting that Faul had to learn to play left-handed bass from scratch. He had no previous technique to unlearn. So he could learn to mimic Paul's technique probably better than an experienced musician who already had his own style. And what do you base this assessment that he had to 'learn from scratch' and had nothing to 'unlearn' on? I mean, and I'm only trying to interject some logic here, if this replacement person came secretly out of nowhere, how then would anyone have knowledge that he didn't know how to play even a little bit? AND, to top THIS off, how many people can you count on one hand who have learned to play ANY instrument from scratch and are capable of playing at the professional level in only a few months? Sorry, revolver, but this point has no merit because you are presenting information here that would be pretty much impossible to either confirm or put to rest. Although I would agree that it is much easier to learn than it is to unlearn and relearn, there can be no evidence which could conclusively prove that the person you say is a replacement ever played, or didn't play, right handed or left, and then was suddenly capable of writing and playing professionally with one of the best Rock n Roll bands of all time. All of this is only speculation and conjecture.
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Post by matchbox on Sept 2, 2004 14:27:46 GMT -5
You're forgetting that Faul had to learn to play left-handed bass from scratch. He had no previous technique to unlearn. So he could learn to mimic Paul's technique probably better than an experienced musician who already had his own style. I'm not forgetting anything. But just like Faul's colored contact lenses and John's shoe lifts, you continue to just "make stuff up" with absolutely no basis in any known facts to fit your version of history. I, on the other hand, have been a professional musician and guitar teacher for over 20 years, and I can speak competently on the subject of technique and hand positions. Paul has played bass and guitar using the exact same technique for over 40 yrs. because he is, and always has been the same man.
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Post by JoJo on Sept 2, 2004 15:16:19 GMT -5
I'll agree that without a known history of this man we allege to be a replacement for Paul, ( I hate the word "Faul", gets everyone worked up.. ) whether he had musical talent or training previously is impossible to know. As for the hand positions, well, paging Eyesbleed, you may know something about this... I wouldn't say that we made up stories about lifts and contacts, rather they are possible explanations for what we perceive to be anomalies in eye color and height. We perceive that they change, and others obviously don't. (I'd say that's been made abundantly clear)
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Post by xpt626 on Sept 2, 2004 15:39:30 GMT -5
I, on the other hand, have been a professional musician and guitar teacher for over 20 years, and I can speak competently on the subject of technique and hand positions. if you truly are a professional musician; you are far from being the only one who is a member of this forum. As is proven daily in courts, an "expert opinion" is just that -- an opinion. Please do not confuse us with the forum that creates and embellishes theories to support its position. Often what is done here is brainstorming, "thinking out loud", and offering possible explanations for anomalies that we notice. None of these things have been offered as [glow=red,2,300]FULL LEGAL PROOF[/glow] ;D we're simply having a discussion. **modified to add: JoJo, I had not read your post when I wrote mine...yet we both used 'anomalies'. Too funny. ;D
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Post by DarkHorse on Sept 2, 2004 16:01:08 GMT -5
I, on the other hand, have been a professional musician and guitar teacher for over 20 years, and I can speak competently on the subject of technique and hand positions. Paul has played bass and guitar using the exact same technique for over 40 yrs. because he is, and always has been the same man. From the footage I've seen of Paul and that's everything in the Anthology and then other videos and pictures, all of the early stuff where Paul is playing bass he uses a pic and almost never looks at his bass guitar. Then in the 'I Am the Walrus' video he is playing the bass with his fingers and looking at the bass while he is playing, something I have NEVER seen him in do in the early videos. Also, look at the Revolution video and see how he's playing. It look as if he is pretend playing the bass.
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Post by DarkHorse on Sept 2, 2004 16:38:07 GMT -5
Often what is done here is brainstorming, "thinking out loud", and offering possible explanations for anomalies that we notice. Yes and the shoe lifts was my theory. I came to that conclusion based on looking at tons of pictures of Paul and the others and all of the videos I could watch. That hypothesis is just as viable as Paul having his ears pinned back in 1967 or Paul shaving his chest in the early years or his voice change in the mid-60's being a 'natural' thing or Paul and the boys playing a game with their fans pretending he was dead to promote record sales(as if they needed it) or that Paul began plucking his eyebrows in the late 60's or that the OPP patch on 'Paul's' arm in the Pepper costume fit perfectly with the costume, logically and aethestically or that all of the clues to death from 1967-1970, which BY FAR outnumber any clues found from 1966-before, are pure coincidence....I could go on and on.
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Post by matchbox on Sept 2, 2004 16:59:07 GMT -5
if you truly are a professional musician; you are far from being the only one who is a member of this forum. As is proven daily in courts, an "expert opinion" is just that -- an opinion. Please do not confuse us with the forum that creates and embellishes theories to support its position. Often what is done here is brainstorming, "thinking out loud", and offering possible explanations for anomalies that we notice. None of these things have been offered as [glow=red,2,300]FULL LEGAL PROOF[/glow] ;D we're simply having a discussion. Simply,
MASTERPIECE! Sorry. Couldn't resist. ;D
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Post by LarryC on Sept 2, 2004 17:05:48 GMT -5
An anomolous situation indeed ;D
I appologize if it appeared that I was appearing to group this forum with the other one in my posting. That was far from my mind, and I may be treading on shakey ground but I don't believe matchbox was either. We all see things differently from different perspectives and in many ways I can relate to matchbox's frustrations of seeing some things said that indicate the person saying them is firing from the hip with no basis of experience. There is a big difference there.
A lot of it is in the presentation and delivery...some are more blunt than others, while others tend to be more verbose (gasp). I can tell you that if any of you ever heard matchbox play the guitar, and heard his band, you would be completely amazed and blown away by his skills on the fretted beast. I think I play the guitar fairly well, but much of my playing has been simply for myself on a non-professional level...but I'm not near the player I wish I was...and to compare my skills to those of matchbox would be a real joke.
My own comments about the finger and hand positions and playing mannerisms are based upon my own experiences and I'm certain the same is true for matchbox...he has better credentials than I do though.
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Post by matchbox on Sept 2, 2004 17:12:50 GMT -5
Just like I wrote it. Where do I mail the check?
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