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Post by DarkHorse on Jun 30, 2005 8:18:35 GMT -5
I vote for cryptic bullshitter with no inside knowledge... I tend to agree.
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Post by outthere on Jun 30, 2005 23:39:01 GMT -5
I will take the lack of objection to my interpretation of Apollo's posts as confirmation. I would like to point out that things were made clearer, concepts expanded upon in each successive album. Apollo has asserted that the walrus theme was hinted at in Pepper and displayed fully in MMT and clarified further in the White album. This seems to be true...mirrors and such. Another example is posted in TKIN forum regarding bullfights... Hinted at initially on the pepper cover and expanded upon later in MMT the movie and comic booklet. Apollo asserts that all goes back to pepper. I think he's right...for the reasons I've given above. Bullshit*er? I can see why one would say that, really I do. ...but, well, I'm looking at the posts, not the poster. Right, Total? btw Why is Paul (Faul) depicted with breasts and hairband on the MMT comic booklets (Fool on the Hill)? Use your magnifier, those are breasts under that Fair Isle sweater! Why?
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Post by TotalInformation on Jun 30, 2005 23:50:41 GMT -5
That panel is a poly-Vartan refernce... there's your transexual.
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Post by outthere on Jul 1, 2005 0:11:32 GMT -5
Impossible. Poly Vartrans didn't appear on the scene until later. 1967 MMT
# Polythene Pam - Recorded together with She Came in Through the Bathroom Window # She Came in Through the Bathroom Window - Recorded 25th July 1969
Math rules it out. Completely.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jul 1, 2005 0:41:40 GMT -5
Put down the crack pipe -- Vartan was dead a good year or so by the time of MMT filming, the comix were release two months later.
(And Polythene Pam was also recorded at the Esher demos in May 68, released on Anthology 3.)
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Post by outthere on Jul 1, 2005 2:13:38 GMT -5
Put down the crack pipe -- Vartan was dead a good year or so by the time of MMT filming, the comix were release two months later. (And Polythene Pam was also recorded at the Esher demos in May 68, released on Anthology 3.) Ok, I've put my crack pipe down. Now that I have done so, I can see that Fylvie Part one was replaced by Fylvie part 2 (aka Polythene Pam) Fylvie Part One was Marissa Sannia (La Maritza) Maritza was 'Sylvie' until replaced by Poly Vartrans after MMT, 1968 You may have to wait for the mushrooms to wear off before this becomes apparent. Abbey Road was 'The End', and was an updated version of the events detailed in pepper. In any case , transsexual Sylvie could not have been the reference in MMT. She was not Sylvie yet. Close, but no.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jul 1, 2005 9:57:54 GMT -5
Maritza was 'Sylvie' until replaced by Poly Vartrans after MMT, 1968Prove it. (And learn how to spell "Vartan.") That to me looks more like the tranny (boy, what a naughty 'girl') than Marissa on the cover of my 1967 Sylvie EP; and there are definitely *three* 'Sylvies' in semi-silhouette on the back. It's more likely Marissa Sannia just sat in as Sylvie (as Keith Richards did for George Harrison) for a few photo sessions before she was killed with JPM in the events of late 66. Pas drole, pas drole cette histoire la... PS - Abbey Road was an update of the original Doll's House concept for BEATLES 'The' (aka "the white album".)
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Post by outthere on Jul 1, 2005 12:28:26 GMT -5
Sorry Total, I know you don't want to hear this, but that's not Poly VarTrans. (I'll use my spelling thanks I like how it parses ) 1968. Marissa. Straight , long hair, centre part,bangs .Woman. This is Lola...(s)he has thinner wavier hair, parted mostly on the left. No bangs. Man. MMT, among other things told the story of Sylvie/Marissa. Sardinia, Marissa's home, was embedded in the comic booklets. That Fool on the Hill comic is not referring to the transsexual Sylvie imitator. I merely wish to clarify what is not being referred to. Any other speculation? btw I considered the possibility you raised Total, months ago. Months of research (literally) discounted it. There seems to be a split regarding Apollo's trustworthiness. I'm not surprised, but I'm trying to look at where the finger is pointing, rather than the finger itself. Same as I do with you, Total. Personally, I find Apollo's posts useful. And yours too TI411 . Clearly, opinions are divided. Where is the middle ground? How do we get past the personalities and get to the truth?
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Post by TotalInformation on Jul 1, 2005 12:51:58 GMT -5
The headband in the comic is an iconic real-Vartan accesory; and I still contend the line in Walrus was referring to the transexual poly-Vartan . (A boy disguised as a girl; just as Sir Golem was a man disguised as a boy). Your contention that the transsexual poly-Vartan did not appear until the couple months between the MMT EP and the India trip seems a stretch.
There's no reason why MMT couldn't be telling the story of Sylvie, Marisa (Sylvie's pre-death double) and poly-Vartan (post-death double) ; just as it told the tale of James Paul, Viv (Paul's pre-death doble) and Sir Golem (post-death double).
I think it would be useful to get a bunch of this French audio to DocPerplexed for analysis.
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Post by DarkHorse on Jul 1, 2005 13:55:23 GMT -5
So now I understand Polythene Pam better. Good conjecture, both OT and TI. Keep it up, we are learning something here....and please keep it civil.
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Post by jonna on Jul 1, 2005 20:56:13 GMT -5
Maritza was 'Sylvie' until replaced by Poly Vartrans after MMT, 1968Prove it. (And learn how to spell "Vartan.") That to me looks more like the tranny (boy, what a naughty 'girl') than Marissa on the cover of my 1967 Sylvie EP; and there are definitely *three* 'Sylvies' in semi-silhouette on the back. It's more likely Marissa Sannia just sat in as Sylvie (as Keith Richards did for George Harrison) for a few photo sessions before she was killed with JPM in the events of late 66. Pas drole, pas drole cette histoire la... PS - Abbey Road was an update of the original Doll's House concept for BEATLES 'The' (aka "the white album".) hey total whatever, do you really think it is necessary to be so rude? the job of rude and obnoxious is already taken by your's truly. step back and remember where you are or i will take action that you will not like. Everyone at this forum respects the other members, if you think you will change the rules think again then find another place to hang your hat.
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Post by Doc on Jul 1, 2005 21:28:02 GMT -5
I will say that I am increasingly ready to buy a bunch of Vartan when I have the time and the extra flow. August is looking good for that. Just looking at the various Poly's, I can't imagine all three having similar voice types. The trannish looking one-----I expect a real range difference from the original PageGirl Sylvie. But, I could be wrong.......
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Post by TotalInformation on Jul 1, 2005 21:53:12 GMT -5
Oh, don't mind me. I throw around crack-smoking in friendly conversation quite often. Whatshisface seems to have taken more or less in that spirit.
Though, I should add his retort was a bit off, in that cocaine is a mind-damaging pharmaceutical and psilocybin mushrooms are a wonderful mind-expanding natural substance. When a very damaged Lennon took psilocybin in Bermuda he began recording again about the double fantasy. Sadly, he was walking on thin ice and soon dispatched to the choir vestibule.
Anyway, feel free to edit my vernacular if it offends; I won't raise a fuss, it's your site.
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Post by JoJo on Jul 1, 2005 23:32:15 GMT -5
I'm trying to look at where the finger is pointing, rather than the finger itself. That's good advice OutThere, you are saying pay attention to the message, not the messenger..It's human nature to want to know more about the messenger though, rather than to be expected to turn a blind eye to what motivates them.
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Post by outthere on Jul 2, 2005 1:43:10 GMT -5
I agree JoJo, I think it's something to keep in mind, that, even though a certain screen name may post something that stretches the credibility factor, it doesn't automatically negate the value of it's other posts. On the the other hand, just because a certain screen name consistently makes good posts, it does not mean that everthing he/she says is gold... What I'm saying is, it's impossible to judge the poster, until you evaluate his/her posts properly. I find that I cannot dismiss Apollo so easily. Therefore I look carefully at his posts to the best of my limited ability. I might have taken offense to TI's riposte had I not studied his posts ...but it's true.. the crack smoking comments are a vital part of his style. I wouldn't want it any other way. Fortunately for me, the closest I've come to smoking crack is when the campfire tossed an ember down the back of my shorts...
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Post by pennylane on Jul 2, 2005 22:39:05 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance.. but why the hell would replace someone like Sylvie Vartan? I have absolutely no idea who she is.. some french popstar or something. Is there an actual connection between her and Paul? Other than a few pictures of her with the Beatles in France and the fact that she played at the same theatre? I don't get the connection, I have never ever heard of any connection with her other than what I said. This whole affair thing.. where and when did this come out?
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Post by JoJo on Jul 2, 2005 23:14:29 GMT -5
All I can say is, for my part, I think she does look a little "mannish" after a certain point.
There was the line, "you should see Polythene Pam"
Reading John's two books of poetry and prose, I could see him making that out of "Polythene Vartan" (or plastic/changable) or as some have said, "PolyVartan".
He goes on to say: "she's so good looking but she looks like a man" Of course that could be anyone, but I don't recall any attempt to "spin" the lyrics to this one. (no one pressed it I guess)
In all fairness, in my looking around for more information for a while, it's apparent that she was quite popular in Europe at the time, certainly a big star in France.
The key would be more solid info on whether she and Paul had more contact than in the few times they are pictured together, not so easy to nail down it seems.
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Post by outthere on Jul 2, 2005 23:51:52 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance.. but why the hell would replace someone like Sylvie Vartan? I have absolutely no idea who she is.. some french popstar or something. Is there an actual connection between her and Paul? Other than a few pictures of her with the Beatles in France and the fact that she played at the same theatre? I don't get the connection, I have never ever heard of any connection with her other than what I said. This whole affair thing.. where and when did this come out? I'll do my best to fill in some pieces.. As to why replace, I think it usually boils down to money, marketing, etc. It's easier and more profitable to market a well known name than an unknown. Sylvie was very well known in France. Not in the new world countries at all apparently. She was also an actor. The fact is, Sylvie Vartan was definitely replaced sometime in 1965/66. Another fact is that person was in turn replaced by another version of Sylvie Vartan, this time a man. TotalInfo debates the timing of this, but not the fact that it happened. The pictures don't lie... Sylvie(Michelle Ma Belle)1963......................Maritza(Lovely Rita)1969......................Lola(Polythene Pam)1971 I say it falls on TI to provide a clear pic of Poly Vartrans, not Maritza, before or during the time of MMT production. Then there's a chance his theory might be correct. As far as the alleged relationship between Paul and Sylvie, the fact that Sylvie was publicly linked and engaged to another popular French persona, Johnny Hallyday, meant that any 'private' relationships were , well , private. ie: not in the public domain. Our controversial friend Apollo seems to support the theory that there is a connection between the story of Sylvie and the Beatles. ( Sylvie et Bruno) My own research confirms that they are indeed linked. Exactly the nature of that link is a bit murky at this point. I wish to point out that , Apollo's assertation that all goes back to Pepper, may again be confirmed by the Sylvie/Maritza connection. That is, Miss Winters in MMT is an expanded version of Lovely Rita, Maritza, the meter (music, not parking) maid. Hope this clears some of the murkiness
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Post by pennylane on Jul 3, 2005 2:17:04 GMT -5
well.. not really. But thanks for trying though I just don't get the connection. Just because they had been photographed with her and played at the same theatre.. you could say that about anyone really. Is this a SK creation by any chance?
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Post by DarkHorse on Jul 4, 2005 18:57:31 GMT -5
All I can say is, for my part, I think she does look a little "mannish" after a certain point. That's not Sylvie Vartan, that's a man baby!
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Post by outthere on Jul 5, 2005 2:52:34 GMT -5
LoL. Mistakenly, I typed the date incorrectly on Lola's pic in my last post. That one is dated 1978 this one is 1971 Is this a SK creation by any chance? No, a Mike Myers inspired device called "The Schwing-o-meter" helped me figure out who's who. Daisies are a connecting theme...for those interested in decoding. BTW Sylvie and Bruno is a Lewis Carroll story. John Lennon referenced Carroll in his lyrics and on the Pepper cover(#52). Sylvie Vartan performed at the Olympia in Paris, managed by, (and later renamed in honour of) Bruno Coquatrix. Just some curious publicly available facts... Perhaps they may be of use.
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Post by pennylane on Jul 5, 2005 3:43:37 GMT -5
She looks the same to me. IMO Sylvie is completely irellavant to PID.. other than a handful of pics, there is no known connection, no signs.. nothing. I just don't think celebrities like this are that important to have replaced. But as for Paul well.. if you're making 'Her Majesty' millions of dollars...
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Post by JoJo on Jul 5, 2005 18:26:36 GMT -5
BTW Sylvie and Bruno is a Lewis Carroll story. John Lennon referenced Carroll in his lyrics and on the Pepper cover(#52). Sylvie Vartan performed at the Olympia in Paris, managed by, (and later renamed in honour of) Bruno Coquatrix. John's interest in Lewis Carroll is well known, and why not, after Paul, and all that followed, he may have indeed felt as if he went down the rabbit hole, or through the looking glass. "What is real, and what is an illusion", to quote the Moody Blues. And there was a story by that name, I suppose it might be a useful read? An interest in Carroll and a story by that name is not a strong connection, I suppose the story and other bits of information possibly are. I enjoy what I've read of his, and John had some reason for an interest in him, I'll put that on my list..
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Post by outthere on Jul 5, 2005 22:53:09 GMT -5
JoJo, I think what you said... is right on. She looks the same to me. IMO Sylvie is completely irellavant to PID.. other than a handful of pics, there is no known connection, no signs.. nothing. I just don't think celebrities like this are that important to have replaced. But as for Paul well.. if you're making 'Her Majesty' millions of dollars... Perhaps you need a Schwing-o-meter.. just ask a nearby chromosome challenged individual (make sure he's wired standard though!) All kidding aside, the folks at M4E and MFH would say exactly the same thing about Paul that you said about Sylvie...and would dismiss the suggestion that PID/PWR. Millions of $ or not... but at least we agree, Paul/Faul having breasts on the Fool on The Hill comic panel does not represent Faux Sylvie. any other speculation?
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Post by xpt626 on Jul 5, 2005 23:15:03 GMT -5
...All kidding aside, the folks at M4E and MFH would say exactly the same thing about Paul that you said about Sylvie...and would dismiss the suggestion that PID/PWR. Millions of $ or not... all kidding aside, we couldn't care less what the folks over at M4E and MFH would (or do) say. Living is easy with eyes closed... one HUGE problem with the 'Sylvie' theory is its place of origin. The same place that accused the other Beatles of complicity in murder, and other bizarre scenarios. the PID theory has been around since the 1960's. Pre-1969, despite the phony "DJ" story that has found its way into Beatle history. There is documentation that The Beatles were vitally important to the financial independence and survival of their country. I am not familiar enough with Sylvie to comment on her appearance. I've looked at photos, but plenty of women became more "mannish" looking in the 1970's -- so that claim in and of itself means nothing to me. Like PL, I really fail to see the point of replacing her. And I don't buy the theory that half the celebrities in pop culture were replaced, either.
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