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Post by LOVELYRITA on Dec 30, 2005 22:29:00 GMT -5
This is clearly JPM, no doubt. But my purpose for this thread is the serious tone of this song, as well as other songs of JPM's from Revolver.
A very sober song about a love that has grown cold. It makes me wonder if the song is about his relationship with Sylvie, and a forced separation. The "system" wanted Sylvie with Johnny, rather than JPM and JPM was forced into this "media romance" with Jane.
And if it's true that in 1965 Sylvie was forced to be with Johnny and her untimely death, and replaced by Fylvie #1 Marissa Sannia, a chilling reminder to JPM. Perhaps the system told him, "This happened to Sylvie, and it will happen to you." IMO I have this idea that they did tell him his days were numbered, thus the sober turn of music of Rubber Soul and Revolver, and the unreleased material of JPM, later used by Bill.
The evil system that devoured the Beatles and some other people close to the Beatles would stop at nothing to do what they wanted. Holding an hourglass up to JPM to remind him his time was running out.....That's another thread, but this song just is chilling, since knowing that JPM was replaced....what a talent.
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Post by mciiii on Dec 31, 2005 13:28:51 GMT -5
Paul's original title for the song was "WHY DID IT DIE?"
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Post by lili on Dec 31, 2005 15:02:18 GMT -5
Wow, I didn't know that. Thanks, McCartney III. Rita, if Paul had any inkling that his life was that much in danger, he would've ran for it. I know that I would've ! Noone is going to hang around with that kind of threat over their head ! I agree with you that For Noone is a very depressing song. However, I think it's about his love affair with Janie going ice cold. He never lived with Sylvie. However, I do believe that if the system wanted her with Johnny H. & Paul got in the way of it, he would've been killed. They do seem to get what they want, don't they
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 1, 2006 1:02:42 GMT -5
When you are part of the "plan", there is no place to hide. He could have ran, but they would have found him. Maybe that's what happened, if the 60 If document was correct about Paris.
I think Jane was the media darling that the press fixed Paul with. Sylvie, being a French girl, probably was not something they wanted because it would upset so many British and American fans.
If some stories are correct, and Sylvie had been killed in 1965, the "Fylvie" that was fixed up with Johnny by the time they married.
But this is based on the different stories I've read, and my take on the "system" and how they work and the media.
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Post by plastic paul on Jan 1, 2006 9:07:59 GMT -5
Paul's original title for the song was "WHY DID IT DIE?" Sorry to ask but can you give a source?
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Post by lili on Jan 1, 2006 12:48:52 GMT -5
I have a photo of Sylvie on her wedding day. She was a very small petite woman. To me, she looks pregnant in that photo. It's definitley Sylvie. You can see how small she was in stature. Fylvie is a bigger woman.
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Post by mciiii on Jan 1, 2006 13:17:55 GMT -5
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Post by plastic paul on Jan 1, 2006 14:09:34 GMT -5
Thanks!
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Post by lili on Jan 1, 2006 15:08:44 GMT -5
Here's the photo I was talking about. Sylvie & Johnny on their wedding day: Sylvie: Fylvie:
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Post by JoJo on Jan 1, 2006 17:00:48 GMT -5
A couple of points of interest from here. Lewisohn says Paul's lead vocal was recorded with the tape running slow in order to sound higher (and thinner) on playback.And, did anyone ever hear of these preliminary lyrics? Why did it die ? ----------------- You'd like to know. Cry and blame her.
You wait You're too late As you're deciding why the wrong one wins, the end begins And you will lose her.
Why did it die ? ----------------- I'd like to know. Try to save it.
You want her You need (love) her So make her see that you believe it may work and some day You need each other.
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Post by mciiii on Jan 1, 2006 17:49:04 GMT -5
Why did it die? (Sylvie?) You'd like to know. Cry and blame her. (Jane?)
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Post by Doc on Jan 1, 2006 20:31:04 GMT -5
A couple of points of interest from here. Lewisohn says Paul's lead vocal was recorded with the tape running slow in order to sound higher (and thinner) on playback.And, did anyone ever hear of these preliminary lyrics? Why did it die ? ----------------- You'd like to know. Cry and blame her.
You wait You're too late As you're deciding why the wrong one wins, the end begins And you will lose her.
Why did it die ? ----------------- I'd like to know. Try to save it.
You want her You need (love) her So make her see that you believe it may work and some day You need each other.
Yes, the discussion about Alan Civil's french horn solo. Thank God, that makes sense. OF course it was doubled in speed and by doing so raised by an octave. That solo arpeggios to in effect reach a concert high "G#" I think, or altissimmo D# written, and with seeming ease. I'd have thought he was playing on a piccollo horn, a la piccollo trumpet! Which does not exist as far as I know. [I know that corni are possible in nearly every key due to a system of interchangeable "crooks" or what look like short lengths of bent tubing. Even so, triple horns with a high Bb trigger notwithstanding, it sounds too easy that high. The idea of popping out written Eb's on a horn makes my teeth ache.
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Post by lili on Jan 3, 2006 12:06:35 GMT -5
JoJo, that is very interesting. It caused me to have a pretty radical thought. What if everything that Paul wrote WASN'T about him personally. Now, before I get shot down, let me explain. He was a songwriter. That's what he did for a living at that point in his life. I'm sure that for the most part, he drew from his personal experiences. I'm not a song-writer, but it would stand to reason that's what they do. However there is no reason to believe that every single word, of every single song, had a very personal meaning to him. What if he experienced something, that made him think of something else & that lead to a song. Or, what if he saw something on the telly ( a soap opera or a chat show ) that made him think of words to a song ? I can see how parts of the other verses from For Noone could relate to Paul. Reading it over a few more times, I can see how it tells more about the disintegration of his relationship with Jane.
How about this:
Does that make sense ?
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Post by JoJo on Jan 3, 2006 17:09:26 GMT -5
I heard it said once that that was the beauty of writing, that you are able to write from the point of view of anyone..
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Post by beatlies on Jan 3, 2006 17:25:56 GMT -5
I still find it doubtful that JPM's "relationship" with Jane was anything other than a false front, or that he wanted a romantic relationship with Sylvie, something he never pursued. The lyrics may be about himself and the Beatles, wanting to leave the group and be "herself." JPM wanted "let me out" to leave the circus and be his / her perceived actual self. The Sylvie replacement proved that the intelligence/police agencies running the show could force imposters on the public that were talented, contemporary singers, who even toured with the Beatles, such as Sylvie Vartan, and continue the vicious frauds that began in the 1950s with Doris Day and others. Maybe even earlier, during World War II, with Shirley Temple?
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Post by plastic paul on Jan 3, 2006 19:39:40 GMT -5
It is well known that Lennon (he said it himself a few times) wrote a lot about himself/from his point of view post 66 (eg. Strawberry Fields, Julia to name just a couple), however later on in his career he felt that that was what he was always doing without realising it in the early days a la "Help!".
IMO JPM was the one who could see a phrase or a think of a few words that he liked the sound of regardless of whether it had any relation to him. One example I can think of is "Eleanor Rigby", although this could of course be "Fictional History"
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Post by beatlies on Jan 3, 2006 19:46:27 GMT -5
One should be skeptical of anything John Lennon or JPM said in public about their songwriting. The lyrics are full of double meaning clues. They could not tell the truth.
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Post by plastic paul on Jan 3, 2006 20:06:29 GMT -5
I only meant John wrote autobiographical songs a lot because he wanted to and JPM was more likely to write based on anyone/thing. Obviously I don't think John wrote "He blew his mind in a car" about himself (unless he really did mean getting stoned, which we all know isn't the case.)
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Post by lili on Jan 5, 2006 12:21:53 GMT -5
I am not touching that post by Beatlies with a 10 foot pole !
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 6, 2006 21:54:10 GMT -5
Funny you mention Shirley Temple, didn't she become an ambassador somewhere when she married? Became very political in her adult life.
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Post by plastic paul on Jan 6, 2006 22:30:40 GMT -5
And features on Sgt. Pepper cover THREE TIMES!!!!
Why?
Theres gotta be some connection surely!
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 6, 2006 22:48:27 GMT -5
Maybe there were three SHIRLEY TEMPLEs?
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Post by beatlies on Jan 7, 2006 1:32:00 GMT -5
Look what I found: " A false report of her death in Hirohito's Japan in 1943 set off a wild celebration in the streets." From: "Zanuck kept spies to inform him of the child's activities at the studio. One time he interrupted a meeting with John Steinbeck to tend to her after hearing she had fallen and broke a tooth. On another occasion she was visited by HG Wells. Shirley was polite and after the famous author left, the little moppet was told she had just met the most important man in the world. "Uh uh. President Roosevelt is the most important man. And Governor Merriam is second." Later Zanuck heard this report while furiously puffing on a cigar. "Who did she say is third?" "No matter how much Zanuck hid it on screen Shirley aged. When World War II broke out movie goers turned away from sentiment. Twentieth Century Fox began to make weightier films like Steinbeck's The Grapes Of Wrath (1940). Shirley was declared over the hill at the age of ten. As a teen she became more independent. Without her mother to push her she never achieved the same acting success as an adolescent that she had as a child. But her grit and determination represented the American spirit to the world. A false report of her death in Hirohito's Japan in 1943 set off a wild celebration in the streets." What if, in plan to weaken American morale, Nazi and Nazi-Japanese agents working inside the U.S. during WWII with high level U.S. military brass and wealthy collaborators, of which there were many, kidnapped and murdered Shirley Temple, or set her up in a fake suicide or something disgusting. How would the government respond? Another Salvador Dali -Fia Pharrow connection here: the Spanish Embassy in Washington D.C. was the center of a powerful Japan/Third Reich spy ring during the war, discovered and (for the most part?) broken up by Canada and the U.S. in 1944. Salavdor Dali, who befriended Mia Farrow while she was a teenager, was pro-Axis and corresponded with one-time Liverpool resident and fellow artist/con-artist Adolph Hitler. I looked up Shirley Temple's movies for the year 1943 ---it was the only year in which she did not appear in any movie before or after. Most previous years, she appeared in two movies or more per year, since she started when she was four years old. The first Firley movie would be titled, then: "SINCE YOU WENT AWAY" produced in 1944. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations under Nixon, then Ghana, (George Bush Sr. replaced her as the U.N. ambassador) Firley (if is it actually a Firley and not really Shirley) is a REPUBLICAN who co-starred (as Firley) in a grade C movie with Ronald Reagan: That Hagen Girl.
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Post by beatlies on Jan 7, 2006 1:44:49 GMT -5
More on "Ambassador Shirley Temple Black" --repulsive: " In 1967, Temple ran for Congress on a platform urging more American involvement in the war in Vietnam. She lost the election, and attributes this to political cartoons that showed the child Shirley Temple facing off against big grown-up politicians. She was 49 at the time. [This is a wrong age for Shirley: she was a decade younger.] Shirley Temple Black remained active in Republican politics, and was named by Richard M. Nixon to serve as US ambassador to the United Nations. She was later an ambassador to Ghana. During the Ford administration, she was the first female Chief of Protocol for the White House, a position she said she did not enjoy -- one foreign dignitary's wife expected her to act as a hairstylist. She was later a Foreign Affairs officer for the State Department under Ronald Reagan, who had played her romantic interest in That Hagen Girl four decades earlier. Of her diplomatic posts, the strongly anti-communist Temple thought her most exciting position was as ambassador to Czechoslovakia, under George H.W. Bush. "I was told I was going to a Stalinist backwater, one of the toughest countries around... And I thought, 'Good! Let's go get 'em!'" While in Czechoslovakia, she once eluded the secret police and attended an anti-government rally, and then watched that nation's [CIA / fascist agents backed -]1968 Velvet Revolution from a friend's apartment. [Some confusion here: does the writer mean the 1968 "liberalization" or the 1989 "velvet revolution" conversion from socialism/Warsaw Pact to the US/capitalist side that occured under President George Bush, along with Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary etc.?] " Shirley Temple doesn't hurt Shirley Temple Black," she once said. "Shirley Temple helps Shirley Temple Black because Shirley Temple is remembered with love and with affection. I am thought of as a friend -- which I am." [!!! SHE SOUNDS LIKE SHE HAS MULTIPLE PERSONALITY DISORDER AS "EVE BLACK," TALKING ABOUT SHIRLEY TEMPLE IN THE THIRD PERSON AS ANOTHER GIRL/ WOMAN !]Shirley and Charles Black have been married more than 50 years, and presently reside in California. "
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Post by sistermaryabbey on Jan 8, 2006 18:00:23 GMT -5
Let's face it, Jane and Paul were totally a media arranged thing. They could help each other's career. Because Paul came from the lower class, Jane could teach him the manners and latedah of the upper crust.
Sylvia was just a fling. She was a French tart that would do things that a lady like Jane would not do sexually. Now granted if TPTB wanted to arrange a marriage between Sylvie and Halliday, then it would mean she would need to quit being Paul's tart.
I think Lili was right and Sylvie was pregnant when she married Halliday. I wonder if she even knew who the father really was ;D Probably not as she was pretty loose morally; however, she might have been teasing Halliday and said it was Paul's baby and Halliday lost it. He could have killed her, accidentally, maybe, and then waited for Paul to make his next visit and eliminate him, too.
You would have thought Sylvie would have realized Halliday's awful temper and would have been smarter than to say something like that.
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