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Post by sistermaryabbey on Jan 8, 2006 18:05:07 GMT -5
One should be skeptical of anything John Lennon or JPM said in public about their songwriting. The lyrics are full of double meaning clues. They could not tell the truth. I would think this would be more reflective of John's comments after Paul was dead. I have heard many Johnny interviews such as the one claiming he said "Cranberry sauce". He had to make these stupid statements in order to save his own neck. Or his statement about only two people he could write songs with.....Paul and Yoko. Let's face it: Paul, yes; Yoko, no. Yoko has no talent and never did and never will. Will.........now there's another topic
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 9, 2006 22:39:55 GMT -5
Who's to say that Jane was such a "lady" unless Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones wrote "Lady Jane" for her. Who knows?
I think it's safe to say that most people in show biz are morally "loose". Especially if they are involved in the occult.
We've read so many people's theories and ideas that we are basing our information on ideas. But if Sylvie was just a passing fancy, why was there two replacements of her? Why was France so important to the Beatles and JPM?
Sometimes we look at these things so often, or too long and we take these ideas and try to figure out what happened, when we don't really know. We know that someone started with some information and we went from there.
What was the significance of Sylvie Vartan?
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Post by lili on Jan 14, 2006 10:52:47 GMT -5
Those are all very valid points, Rita. I can give you some ideas as to why Sylvie was important to Paul. His relationship with Jane had reached a stalemate. Her career was more important to her than he was. He was an old-fashioned guy & felt that a woman's place was in the home cooking & cleaning for him. He was young, & obviously didn't know any better. Jane was brought up in a well to do famiily. She was just too sophisticated for Paul. He wanted to improve his social status, so he gave it a go. It turned out to be a disaster emotionally for both of them. I don't know Sylvie's background. I did research it at one point, but I never read her whole biography. I can venture a guess that she was just a simple girl who made good. I don't think that she was anywhere near as sophisticated as Lady Jane. However, she was very famous in her own right. When the boys met her, it was on her own turf. She was the one being fussed over, not them. Paul thought that she was cute & she must've thought the same of him. They started a relationship based on the mores of that time. They got together to have a few laughs. It has been said that her morals were rather loose. So, she most probably satisfied Paul in ways that Miss Jane had no desire to do. That would most assuredly keep a guy coming back for more. Especially, if there are no strings attached. They were both in committed relationships set up for appearances sake. Neither one of them were interested in getting serious. At least not in the beginning. What happened later on, is anyone's guess
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 14, 2006 12:35:58 GMT -5
It has been said that her morals were rather loose.
I think you're just citing yourself here.
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 15, 2006 1:55:42 GMT -5
There had to be something more than just a passing fancy, some sort of link, or why would they have the woman in the blue dress on the back cover of Abbey Road that looks much like the blue dress Sylvie wore in alot of those publicity shots with the Fab Four.
Unless someone who feeds us this information about Paul and Sylvie is all part of some sick scheme to confuse our thinking. And she really was a fling and nothing more.
Maybe we are reading too much into their alleged relationship. Maybe we are romanticizing they were madly in love but couldn't share that love with the world. He was with Jane for publicity and she with Johnny for the same reasons. We could go on and on.
It makes for an interesting forum when we discuss various songs.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 15, 2006 14:39:01 GMT -5
And for TI to get personal about someone citing themselves as being loose is not what this forum is about.
I never called or implied any other poster here was "loose." Still waiting for you to rise from your fog of illiteracy and retract...
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Post by lili on Jan 16, 2006 11:03:03 GMT -5
T.I, they all lived in a very interesting era. In the mid to late 1960's morality was going through a major change. Sylvie was at the top of her game. She was very pretty, so I'm sure that she had many lovers. I have always read that the French in general are rather free sexually. They have a very romantic culture, & aren't uptight about sex. I didn't want to generalize like that, in case we have members who are of French descent. I can just see someone coming back with, " My MOM is French !!! "
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Post by Doc on Jan 16, 2006 11:53:49 GMT -5
T.I, they all lived in a very interesting era. In the mid to late 1960's morality was going through a major change. Sylvie was at the top of her game. She was very pretty, so I'm sure that she had many lovers. I have always read that the French in general are rather free sexually. They have a very romantic culture, & aren't uptight about sex. I didn't want to generalize like that, in case we have members who are of French descent. I can just see someone coming back with, " My MOM is French !!! " Well, I've heard that the French in the rural areas are very moral and chaste. Honey, the sleaze factor is found mostly in Paris. You know, walking zee Boulevarde. But, you know, Paris is a great town anyway. Can't wait to go. Viva la France! Off the record, my mom isn't French. Anyone got a French mére? OK, Paris isn't really the sleaze capital of the world. It's Bangkok, followed closely by Amsterdam. Can't wait to visit both. Should we take a poll on this? The world's sleaziest cities? Oh, let's. What fun. You, even if it turned out to be true that the French WERE a busload sleazier than us good, tasteful, blue-blooded 'Anglo-Saxon-Dane-Celtic-Norman' folks, well, we COULD work at catching up. IMO, Sylvie did not look like a sleazeball. She looked like she had real class and judgement. She was no alley cat.
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 16, 2006 14:23:38 GMT -5
The French may have a taste for sexual freedom, but what country doesn't have their cities of lust? And whether it's the elite section with their fancy words, or the sleaze district with their street walkers, it's everywhere. Sylvie didn't look cheap, Fylvie did have sleazy looking poses and so did polyvartan, the supposed drag queen version of Sylvie.
I think they had something more than just a flesh fixation, but the "powers that rule" had their ideas on who should be set up with whom. After all, Rock Hudson and James Dean were set up with female dates, and I think Rock was married for a time. But that was all for publicity's sake in those days. Now that people are not in the closet any longer, those set ups are not as common, as they were in the 1960's before the sexual revolution.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 16, 2006 17:09:19 GMT -5
Lili, thank you for not falsely accusing me of insulting you. I'm just pointing out there isn't any kind of testimony to Vartan's having been overly promiscuous. Even if that were the case, it does not preclude a romantic relationship with JPM. Though Mal Evans said there were lesbian strippers performing for the Beatles backstage at the Olympia, and if Sylvie was hanging with them... And Sylvie Vartan was from a Bulgarian family that defected to France, like the von Trapps. PS. My sainted grandmother was French. T.I, they all lived in a very interesting era. In the mid to late 1960's morality was going through a major change. Sylvie was at the top of her game. She was very pretty, so I'm sure that she had many lovers. I have always read that the French in general are rather free sexually. They have a very romantic culture, & aren't uptight about sex. I didn't want to generalize like that, in case we have members who are of French descent. I can just see someone coming back with, " My MOM is French !!! "
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Post by DarkHorse on Jan 16, 2006 19:01:30 GMT -5
One thing to remember is that even if Paul and Sylvie were lovers didn't automatically mean he didn't love Jane also. The idea that Jane and Paul's relationship was a setup seems offbase to me. Is this a theory started on another board? Well we usually like to have more proof or some proof to go on with these type of theories here on this board. JPM loved many women it seems. He was probably involved with Jane in a somewhat serious relationship(afterall, he was living with her) and that didn't mean he hadn't had his share of groupies and maybe Sylvie was a little more special than your average sidedish for McCartney. After all, she was famous and beautiful in her own right. P. S. Doc, I didn't know that about the rural sections of France. I thought France was promiscuous everywhere.
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 16, 2006 22:49:04 GMT -5
While Jane and Paul may have had "love", when Bill became Faul, Jane was pictured with Bill, did she still have a fling with him? Did Faul and Fylvie ever get together? Just something I've wondered about but wasn't sure I ever found it in any of the forums.
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Post by DarkHorse on Jan 16, 2006 22:53:35 GMT -5
While Jane and Paul may have had "love", when Bill became Faul, Jane was pictured with Bill, did she still have a fling with him? Did Faul and Fylvie ever get together? The right answer is the logical answer. Most likely no and no.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 17, 2006 1:06:00 GMT -5
Re: Jane & Faul
Anything's possible when two adults are thrown together in an impossible, crazy siutation like that. Weren't they even playing house for a few months from about MMT thru Rishikesh?
I sometimes think "She Came in through the Bathroom Window" was Faul's song about Jane.
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Post by lili on Jan 17, 2006 11:32:55 GMT -5
That is very well thought out, Darkhorse. Paul was involved in a serious relationship with Jane. I read somewhere that he was on the set of Alfie & saw her wearing that man's shirt. Her legs were bare, & he about had a fit ! Alfie was filmed in 1966. That is not the typical behaviour of a man whose not interested any longer. I think that Paul & Jane both had issues with intimacy. They both put their careers foremost & this led to alot of hard feelings between them. I think that what you wrote about Sylvie is spot on. She was not just any groupie to Paul. He respected her as a talented artist in her own right. I think that they had more than just a casual "fling".
T.I., no problemo. I was just going by what I've heard over the years concerning the French in general.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 17, 2006 12:04:31 GMT -5
Just a timeline note -- Alfie ws released march 1 1966, so the filming was almost certainly done during 1965...
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Post by lili on Jan 17, 2006 12:09:42 GMT -5
Thank you T.I. I wasn't too sure about that. So, that would mean that it was being filmed either while Sylvie was still alive ( & with Johnny H.) or after she was killed. HMMMM... I can see Paul going back with Janie, as a rebound from Sylvie. Jane & him were kind of like the Royals. They had a formal relationship for the public to see. Behind the scenes, I'm sure that things were very different. They weren't engaged to be married, so I'm sure that Jane turned a blind eye to Paul's infidelities. That might be why he hadn't yet put a ring on her finger. He wasn't ready for that kind of commitment.
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Post by TotalInformation on Jan 17, 2006 15:57:58 GMT -5
Sylvie probably didn't die until about the same time JPM did.
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Post by sistermaryabbey on Jan 17, 2006 16:06:23 GMT -5
I agree Paul had many women. He, regretfully was never really faithful to Jane. I do think his relationship with Jane was more serious than that with Sylvie. Sylvie was popular in her country, but the Beatles were popular worldwide. I think she was just a fling because she would do certain sexual things that Jane wouldn't.
As a female raised in the same era, I know how we girls were taught to think and act. Looking at Sylvie from the prospective I would have had back then, she looked trampy compared to Ms Asher. Jane always looked and acted like a lady. She lived with Paul so there had to be something there.
When you see pictures with Jane and Bill, Jane usually looks like she would rather be somewhere else. Only on occasion do you see her truly smiling. I think she truly disliked Bill and his coming in and taking over the house, etc.
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Post by DarkHorse on Jan 17, 2006 20:13:20 GMT -5
Sylvie probably didn't die until about the same time JPM did. Was she killed? When was she replaced?
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Post by lili on Jan 18, 2006 10:34:42 GMT -5
From what I've been able to tell, she was killed sometime after August 1965. She was replaced soon after with the 1st Fylvie, Marisa Sannai ( am I spelling that right ? ). I have seen photos from a Sylvie photo session taken in late 1965, that are NOT Sylvie. They are Marisa, but are being touted as Sylvie. When I have the chance, I will track them down & post them here for all to see. My theory is that she did something to royally piss of Johnny H. & he accidently killed her. I think that he really loved her, but she didn't share the same affection. So, he was having an affair with a woman who really resembled her. That woman was Marisa Sannai. That would explain how easy it was for TPTB to put her in Sylvie's place. She had already gained Johnny's affection. It wouldn't be the 1st time that a person turned to someone else to get over hurt feelings.
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Post by il ras on Jan 18, 2006 12:50:43 GMT -5
Sannia.
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Post by sistermaryabbey on Jan 18, 2006 16:03:16 GMT -5
It was easy for Marissa Sannia to step into Sylvie's shoes because they looked very much alike. There are pictures where Sylvie looked pregnant. I bet she was teasing Halliday about whose baby it was and it set off his explosive temper. You'd think she would have known Halliday well enough to know such a comment would be stupid, however, she may not have had a lot in the brain department. He could easily have killed her accidentally. It was necessary to replace her with an imitation. No one seemed to consider an honest, or almost honest story that Sylvie died, period. Adlib some details to let Halliday off the hook and go one. Then Marissa could have shown up as a star in her own right. I wonder why all the cover up?
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Post by lili on Jan 19, 2006 13:25:44 GMT -5
Thank you Ilras Those are good questions, SMA. I wonder indeed
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Post by LOVELYRITA on Jan 21, 2006 22:52:04 GMT -5
It was easy for Marissa Sannia to step into Sylvie's shoes because they looked very much alike. There are pictures where Sylvie looked pregnant. I bet she was teasing Halliday about whose baby it was and it set off his explosive temper. You'd think she would have known Halliday well enough to know such a comment would be stupid, however, she may not have had a lot in the brain department. He could easily have killed her accidentally. It was necessary to replace her with an imitation. No one seemed to consider an honest, or almost honest story that Sylvie died, period. Adlib some details to let Halliday off the hook and go one. Then Marissa could have shown up as a star in her own right. I wonder why all the cover up? It makes me wonder if "Run For Your Life" was about Sylvie and Johnny.... I'd rather see you dead, than to be with another man... Someone else mentioned it on some other thread, but I don't remember which one.
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