Seth: God of Confusion

[puzzled]

I think I have found a helpful reference for figuring out the connections to the Egyptian god(s) of Set and Heru (or Seth and Horus).

I happened across a book written by Wolfgang Helck, "Probleme Der Agyptologie," translated as "Seth: God of Confusion," 1967. As everyone knows, it gets confusing when trying to read up on the subject, because they have so many different names for supposedly the same person. Horus the Younger, Horus the Older, Horus something-else because he has this feather on his head..and so on. This author really seemed to clear up a lot of that confusion, and has implied to my mind, some "new" ideas on the subject.

Unfortunately the pdf file that I have is a photocopy of the book, so I am unable to copy and paste quotes. (I'm just full of excuses tonight). My second problem is that some of the content is rather....should I say....explicit. The old religions didn't have our same moralities about discussing procreation, so I will do my best to be sensitive to our current level of acceptability.

While reading over a few posts today, it seemed to link into several different areas of discussion, so I'm going to try to transcribe some pertinent points. For this reason, please forgive my brevity. I could provide a copy of the pdf if someone wanted further information.

1. Yellow custard oozing from a dead dog's eye.

Quoted from text:

The texts contain many references to a conflict between Horus and Seth. They are not only called the two gods, the two lords, the two men, the two rivals, but also the two fighters. The image that has been compounded from scattered data, of Horus and Seth doing battle and wounding one another, the one losing his eye and the other his testicles, is not confirmed by more detailed sources such as the "Contendings of Horus and Seth."

Something happened to the eye of Horus. Perhaps kni is to be translated as "turning yellow." The quarrel arises after Seth has lost his virile potency and because Horus has not got the eye in his possession. It stood on the forehead of Seth and Seth is not willing to give it back to him. How the eye got there, we shall see presently.

Fallen is Horus because of his eye;
powerless is Seth because of his testicles.
Horus has wept because of his eye;
Seth has wept because of his testicles.
This translation is apparently a condensation of the story.

Actual translation:

I have filled the eye, after it had become small, in this night of the conflict of the two men. What is the conflict of the two men? That is the conflict of Horus and Seth. After Seth had caused a discharge from the face of him. After Horus had taken away the strength of Seth. It was Thoth who did this with his fingers.

It seems that the eye became small not as a result of the conflect of Horus and Seth, but as a result of homosexual acts between these two gods.

The translation then would be: "after Seth had withdrawn," suggesting an original unity of Horus and Seth, or at least a union consisting in a homosexual embrace, which was ended by Seth. We choose the intransitive meaning 'to flow out.' The eye of Horus can drip. Liquid issues from the eye, causing it to lose its strength.

Horus ejaculates on lettuce, which Set eats, and becomes pregnant.

They eye of Horus can also be represented as "the one great in magic, the cutter, who came forth from Seth." Thoth is also called "The son of the two rivals," or "the son of the two lords, or "the son of the two lords, who came forth from the fore-head." Then there is the well-known text from Edfu, which confirms the above scattered data of earlier periods:

"I bring your the beautiful green plants on which you have emitted your seed, which is hidden there, which the effeminate one has swallowed. Your seed belongs to him and he will conceive for you a son, who will come forth from his forehead." These words are addressed to Min-Horus; the "effeminate one" is a contemptuous designation of Seth; the son is Thoth.


As you can tell already, this is a very different version than we usually hear. To be continued....

[puzzled]

Continued....


The birth of Seth is the beginning of confusion. He is the author of confusion. Seth does not respect existing boundaries. The frontier between the sexes, which was created by Atum, is ignored by Seth. The homosexual relations between Seth and Horus ended in a quarrel. Before a solution is found and reconciliation is brought about, a separation is made between the two gods, thus ending open conflict.

The separating of Horus and Seth is equaled to setting a boundary between the cosmos and the chaos surround it like a flood. The separation, indeed, has creative significance, for it is a decisive mythical event. The Egyptians could link all kinds of distinctions or contrasts in contemporary reality with the separation of Horus and Seth; heaven and earth; earth and underworld; right and left

; black and red; etc.

Despite the part played by Thoth in the “Contendings of Horus and Seth,” it is Re, the lord of the universe, who divides the universe; Horus becomes king of the earth and Seth god of thunder in heaven.

Horus receives Egypt and the throne of his father, and Seth is driven out into the desert. That is to say, the matter rests at the moment of separation. However, the red land is not given to Seth, he is driven away to it. Horus is merely justified, and no integration is arrived at. No wonder that Seth is not satisfied, as he is in the Shabaka text. He gathers his followers for battle. The result is a general persecution of the wicked Seth. The gods stick their spears into his neck [St. _____ the Dragon Slayer?]. His name is erased and his images are destroyed.

2. McCartney’s Ram symbolism.

A passage describes a coitus in the style of Seth where he leaps upon the goddess Anat as a RAM, deflowers her with a chisel, and rapes her with fire. It is remarkable that in this passage bisexual traits are ascribed to Anat; she is “clad as men and girt as women” and “acting as a male.”


Added** I just had a thought that our confusion about all this is a good testament regarding their efforts toward pleasing the god of confusion, if in fact that is the entity being evoked here.

[puzzled]

continued..........



3. A conversation on this forum regarding the Butcher Cover and the meaning of the body parts.

Someone in another thread had suggested that perhaps the body parts on the Butcher Cover were representative of Osiris, as he was cut up into 14 pieces - and someone else said that wasn't possible, because Osiris did not have two heads. This was the comment that piqued my interest, because apparently the combination of Horus/Set became a two-headed god, almost like Janus.

Quoted from the text:

With a multitude of carefully gathered data, which need not be adduced here, Kees has shown that in several Egyptian nomes a pair of falcons was worshipped. This pair of falcons was the divine pair Horus and Seth, worshipped in a cult as a single deity. The second part of Kee’s study may serve to refute the opinion of Griffiths, that “the dual god Horus-Seth” was only “a projection of the dual divinity envisaged in the king.” Antywey is not an example of “another composite deity” but Horus and Seth united and reconciled in one god. Antywey is sometimes written with two falcons, from which one might conclude this dual god to be a local form of Horus. On s stela of the New Kingdom he is depicted as Seth, and the inscription calls him both Antywey and Seth. A late priest’s title like shtp ntrwy (who reconciles the two gods) leads us to think that in spite of alterations in the national theology, the reconciliation of Horus and Seth was celebrated in this nome until late times. A ceremonial name for the capital of this 10th nome in Upper Egypt was in Denderah: hwt-shtp (house of reconciliation).

An important point is the conclusion of Kees that Horus and Seth, who appear as two separate gods in mythology, are worshipped as one god in the local cult. Other scattered data also inform us that a temple was dedicated to Horus-Seth, and that there was a priest of Horus-Seth. This union of Horus and Seth was depicted in the Am Duat and the Book of Gates by a figure with two heads. [Could this have some connection to the twin references?]

[puzzled]

Continued, again.........


The author claims that the story of Set murdering Osiris has also been retold incorrectly. There is so much information given to back up his assertion, but let me cut to the chase with this:

In the Osiris hymn it is related that he who committed the deed of violence is himself smitten by the outrage, and on the Ikhernofret stela that the enemies of Osiris were vanquished, and that is sacrificed on the sand banks of Nedyt. I do not believe the faithful are deliberately blurring or distorting truth here. They celebrate that which according to them is the truth and the actual purport of the act of Seth. By killing Osiris, Seth has slain himself and given himself as a sacrifice. The sacrifice of Seth and his following in the ritual is the dramatization of the murder of Osiris in its true perspective. It symbolizes the end of Seth the demon of death, who as a suicide could find no rest. It unites him with his brother, Osiris the god of the dead. It confirms the cosmic order and does away with duality. Since the murder is not only the culmination, but also the end of chaos, it can be celebrated as a sacrifice.

4. Other interesting information about Set/Seth.

Seth was born "not in due season or manner, but with a blow he broke through his mother's side and leapt forth."

Because of the way Seth was born, he became the god of abortions.

This author argues that Set was NOT castrated by Horus. Instead the correct translation is the god that is set apart - Separate.


Ok, that is what I've typed up for now. If someone has a specific question I can try to look it up for them. Please let me know your thoughts!

[iameye]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Jonathan

and

With the cessation of the Jewish monarchy following the destructions of both the Temple of Solomon and the Second Temple, the line of the monarchy was always carefully preserved and guarded[citation needed] even though no kings such as David and his immediate descendants were alive. It was from that supposed Davidic line though that many great rabbis and "princes" of the people were claimed descent. Thus men such as the editor of the Mishnah, Rabbi Judah haNasi and his heirs were considered to be from the Davidic line, hence also the title "Nasi" meaning prince. Many of the heads of the Jewish communities in Babylon, the Reish Galuta were also described as being of the Davidic line.
Subsequently, great rabbis such as Rashi, who was a descendant of Judah haNasi, and the Maharal of Prague, were all considered to be from the Davidic line by Orthodox Judaism. Note, however, that according to Rav Sherira Gaon, in his iggeret, Hillel the Elder, great-great-great-grandfather of Rabbi Judah haNasi, was descended from David only on his mother's side, and was actually of the tribe of Benjamin.
The future Jewish Messiah is expected to be from the "Davidic line" (The Tree of Life), see Jewish eschatology. Many prayers in the Jewish prayer book, the Siddur make fervent mention for the restoration of King David's monarchy, and the long-awaited Messiah who is referred to as Mashiach ben David, "Messiah son of [King] David".

[B]

Puzzled wrote:
On a stela of the New Kingdom he is depicted as Seth, and the inscription calls him both Antywey and Seth.

"Anyway"
(Faul)

hear cover version: www.youtube.com/watch?v=03CkaOo0his

"If you love me, won't you call me?
I've been waiting; waiting too long.
In my soul is constant yearning,
Always singing; singing this song.

Only love is strong enough to take it on the chin;
When did I begin to fall?

chorus:
Anyway, anyway, you can make that call.
You feel free to make yourself at home.
Aaaaaah; Ooooh.

If we could be closer longer, that would help me;
Help me so much.
We can cure each others' sorrow.
Won't you please, please, please get in touch?

If a love is strong enough it may never end.
Why would I pretend to fall?
Wooooh.

chorus

Any way, any way, any way at all
Any way that you can, make that call!"

(15 second pause; then instrumental music that slowly goes crazy)

"It symbolizes the end of Seth the demon of death, who as a suicide could find no rest. It unites him with his brother, Osiris the god of the dead."
------------------------------

The sun, by day, SETs in the West. Sunset. (SunSETH)
So: "I'll follow the sun" is sung by 'Seth' McCartney.

"On a stela of the New Kingdom he is depicted as Seth, and the inscription calls him both Antywey and Seth. "

Stella McCartney

"Seth was born "not in due season or manner, but with a blow he broke through his mother's side and leapt forth."

Or, in modern terminology: He was born of an egg that had been removed from his mother;
a "test-tube baby" perhaps. "I am the eggman" koo goo ga joob!
(Or possibly, but less likely imo, a Caesarian birth)

"The birth of Seth is the beginning of confusion. He is the author of confusion.
Seth does not respect existing boundaries."

Got to be a joker; he just do what he please.

"The frontier between the sexes, which was created by Atum, is ignored by Seth.
The homosexual relations between Seth and Horus ended in a quarrel."

Approximate quote from 1981 record about PID:
"After a heated late night argument with John Lennon, McCartney stormed out of the studios
and raced into the night in his Astin Martin, only to be found 3 hours later crushed under an embankment."

" Before a solution is found and reconciliation is brought about, a separation is made between the two gods, thus ending open conflict."

"The separating of Horus and Seth is equaled to setting a boundary between the cosmos and the chaos surround it like a flood."

Chaos and creation in the back yard

[puzzled]

Thanks both of your for your contribution.

Letter B: You beat me to a couple of those connection. Darned sleep!

I surely didn't think about Stella McCartney, that is excellent. I am not that familiar with Paul's Personal life, so it is great to see even more than I anticipated.

You can see why this book was pinging me like crazy as I was reading it. It is very different from the general textbook version of history, and I think it fits a lot of the symbolic messages we are getting.

I don't know how available this book is. I think we need to pass it around though, get as many people "symbol-savvy" as we can.

I was expecially intrigued to see the RAM connection, because all this time after reading so many other comments on the subject, fully accepted that it was the Zodiac Sign being indicated.

And if I am allowed to wildly speculate, I have to wonder why they are programming us with information to cause CONFUSION. This approach makes more sense to me, because when you think about Setians you picture evil baby-killers or something, and I think that is why we can't get our brains around what they do and why.

[puzzled]

hwt-shtp (house of reconciliation).



Come together....right now..... over ME.


(Ok, I'll admit I'm stretching with this one, but it jumped in my mind when I read that)

[B]

That's a good one!

[puzzled]

Letter B:

This was an excellent connection:

"Seth was born "not in due season or manner, but with a blow he broke through his mother's side and leapt forth."

Or, in modern terminology: He was born of an egg that had been removed from his mother;
a "test-tube baby" perhaps. "I am the eggman" koo goo ga joob!
(Or possibly, but less likely imo, a Caesarian birth)


I AM THE EGG MAN!


This whole Egg Man thing has been bugging me, and I wasn't making that connection. The description in the writings is of him tearing his way out of her SIDE, which I guess I was also picturing as caesarian.

Then yesterday while watching Help! and they sing that line in the song, I think it is Ringo swivels on his chair and the camera shot is directly on his crotch, shot up from the ground when they sing "I am the egg man" and then the next egg line is the line of men in the white outfits and caps, so I kept getting the "semen" connection from that. They definitely look like sperm cell costumes (I assume someone has called this one before?)

I wasn't even thinking about an intimate relationship between McCartney and Lennon. I suppose if they really are Setians, then this would be a given, but I hadn't seen any rumors about any bi-sexual relationships with the band members? Again, if someone is involved in "secret" societies, then everything they do is obviously not exposed for public knowledge.

I have seen a few comments about Faul being a clone, but haven't come across any evidence regarding that one yet, so I thought maybe that was just a tongue-in-cheek joke. Guess I'll search the forum and see what I can find. So the test tube baby is another one I had't pinged on yet. We know they've had the technology for years. The first time I read about it was around 1974, and the wording of the article made me think they had it figured out then. If I recall rightly, they admitted to cloning salamanders at that time. I'm already happy that I took the time to transcribe all this, as you've given me a few good trails already!

Thanks!

[B]

puzzled wrote:
"I wasn't even thinking about an intimate relationship between McCartney and Lennon.
I suppose if they really are Setians, then this would be a given, but I hadn't seen any rumors
about any bi-sexual relationships with the band members?"

Tell Me What You See[/b]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXrv9LopY8

"Oh Darling! If you leave me, I'll never make it alone..."

"Come together....right now..... over ME."

Think 'dirty'. (Apologies for the necessary crudeness) A penis as a "one eyed monster" here:


"I have filled the eye, (squirt, squirt)
after it had become small, (that's all you got for me?!)
in this night of the conflict of the two men. (rough sex?)
"What is the conflict of the two men? That is the conflict of Horus and Seth.
After Seth had caused a discharge from the face of him. (Horus's dick)
"After Horus had taken away the strength of Seth.
It was Thoth who did this with his fingers." (Thoth jerked off Seth, but apparently as a yet-to be born spirit)

Yellow matter custard, dripping from a 'dead' penis's eye

Not sure I get the scene here, but....


Horus ejaculates on lettuce, which Set eats, and becomes pregnant....

"I bring your the beautiful green plants on which you have emitted your seed, which is hidden there, which the effeminate one has swallowed. Your seed belongs to him and he will conceive for you a son, who will come forth from his forehead." These words are addressed to Min-Horus; the "effeminate one" is a contemptuous designation of Seth; the son is Thoth."

Thoth is also called "The son of the two rivals"

So Thoth caused himself to be created? Being the resultant "egg" of the union of Seth and Horus.
And since this was not a true male/female relationship, the sperm would have to have been
combined with an egg, removed from a female donor, a "test tube" baby then, but possibly
re-inserted into someone's womb...

[puzzled]

Letter B:

I don't know if this theory goes against your "John as Satan" idea, but I think there is a merging of information that might take us somewhere new.

Someone else in your thread claimed that John was innocent of the symbolism that this band has spread across the entire globe, and I suppose that if you are young and don't know any better, and the people who are paying all the bills tells you to put on a wizard costume and say these words, that it is conceivable that the members could be uninvolved.

But when you add all the symbols, all the weirdness, all the evidence together, it just doesn't seem feasible to me that they were unwitting accomplices.

Also, from some people's reaction, they are offended that we would suggest the Beatles were Setianists/Satanists because they were Good Guys. I hope that some of the information that has been provided shows that our current popular notions of Set/Seth/Satan and his followers are at least somewhat warped and shallow.

I think we need to be willing to actually LOOK and SEE what they have put right in front of us. Not to judge it, or decide within our own selves what some other person might do, but just take the evidence as it stands. They have purposefully included these images and words in their work for a reason.

[puzzled]

Thanks for that incredible link.

Look at the comment that goes with the video:


Lennon/McCartney

About themselves:

"We were each other's intimates." - Paul

"Paul and I know each other on a lot of different levels that very few people know about." - John


The best ever:

Q Magazine - 1998
Q: "If John Lennon could come back for a day, how would you spend it with him?"
Paul: "In bed."


So obviously this is already known amongst researchers. Another connection! This is getting fun!

[puzzled]

Letter B:

This is the problem with picking and choosing little facts to put in here. The book explains all this in detail, and it is hard for me to condense it accurately.

I am thinking we need to keep the "Dog" symbol as standing by itself, because it is used and referred to SO MUCH in their and others' work. So far I have been satisfied to make the connection to the "Dog Star" but I am open for a different connection. Sirius was so important to the Egyptians, with indicating the flooding of the Nile and all that. So I could see a direct connection between Horus and Sirius, vs. Osiris/Isis. The book said that Set/Nephthys were in fact contemporaries to Osiris/Isis and not the next generation of their children. That is another change.

As I mentioned I was trying to avoid some of the more direct quotes, since I don't know the age group that visits here, but I will fill in a little.

When they translate the story, it sounds like Horace is performing felatio on Set, probably not willingly. In fact, there is an indication of child molestation in there, because of the timing, but that is beyond my understanding at this point.

When Seth withdraws his phallus, he ejaculates into Horace's eye. Set's semen has some kind of "poison" (maybe not poison?) but it is related to the venom of a scorpion.

So this "injurs" the eye, but the eye is detachable after that, and ends up on the forehead of Set and is used later by Osiris to see supernatural things - so this is a symbol yet to be identified.

The fingers thing is a different part of the story. It involves anal penetration and massaging of the prostate, as taught by Isis. Then they ridicule him for his premature ejaclation! Anyway, Isis is the one who gets Horus to ejaculate on the lettuce, then feeding it to Seth causing him to give birth to Thoth.

I think you would really enjoy reading it yourself, after seeing your Egyptian interest in other threads. The guy is very scholarly and it has really opened my eyes to a few things that have been confusing me about the whole family tree.

[puzzled]

I found this quote from Jarvitronics in the thread about the Sgt. Pepper Cover:

E=MCC

How could MCC(artney) possibly resist putting Einstein on Sgt Pepper?

To take it one step further, if you substitute MCC for E (that is what the equal sign means, after all) in HEARTS you get HMCCARTS.

(Now somebody is bound to suggest that Paul really did have a twin, and that his name starts with an H . . . but don't look at me.)


I would propose that if Faul is Set, then his twin would be Horus or Heru (as hinted at in above quote). I'm not sure he would necessarily have to have a real life twin since I assume this is still symbolism, but WTH?

Uh oh....that leads down the road to the Rosemary's Baby connection in the IAAP videos --

I swear I wasn't headed there when I started this thread.

[puzzled]

Ok Letter B:

I see you're holding out on me!

Quoted from the Sgt. Pepper thread:

Now where was I? ;D
Oh, wait! I get it! Iamaphoney is in the role of Horus, son of Osiris, avenging his father's death.
Hence, he is a son of Paul, just as Bettina Heubbers was a Paul daughter!

There is a lot of reading to do here to get all caught up with the entire story, so bear with me. I am probably repeating things you've already figured out, but I still think the Set/Horus combo and Set fathering Thoth is a new twist?

[B]

"Iamaphoney is in the role of Horus, son of Osiris, avenging his father's death.
Hence, he is a son of Paul, just as Bettina Heubbers was a Paul daughter!"

Did I write that or did you?
Because I know I wrote it some time ago.
And I don't know if you're quoting me, or saying it yourself!

...the Set/Horus combo and Set fathering Thoth is a new twist?

I think Thoth.

I was working on a reply, thoth I was distracted by David Bowie . Still tryin' to get some stuff
figured out.

(Paul wink picture here)

[puzzled]

Yes, I am quoting you from the Sgt. Pepper thread.

Do you have any opinion regarding this Set/Horus version vs. the Osiris/Horus version?

[B]

not yet... stay tuned.

[puzzled]

I'm on the edge of my seat.

It seems odd to me that of all things I can get so jazzed about Egyptian theology. I'm not a believer/non believer either way regarding reincarnation, but I'd like to think if there is then I was a scribe once upon a time. ;D

And folks had manners back then, darnit. Get off my lawn you kids!
(cuz I'd be real old, see?)

[B]

You were an Egyptian, but not a scribe. A writer in another time.

Ah, the good old dayz: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimmTdn9314

about reincarnation: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sxf6Xd75yUo

[puzzled]

Since we've just met, I can't tell if you are yankin' my chain or being serious. Or does your computer have an attachment that mine is missing?
;D

[B]

Hey, we were just about married a few posts ago!

Just for puzzled: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM8KebDc8ac

[puzzled]

Well I did propose, but we still have just met. I'm a tramp like that.

Thanks for the link. I have watched some of the IAAP videos, but hadn't seen that specific one yet. I grew up during the massive Beatles brainwashing era, but I was never a big fan and don't know a lot of these facts that everyone here takes for granted.

My interests have been in the "synchromystic" area, and I had been looking for symbolism about the scarab and the yellow volkswagon bug, and of course tumbled across all of this minutia. It has been so fascinating that I am trying to soak up as much as I can.

[B]

Puzzled wrote:
"My interests have been in the "synchromystic" area, and I had been looking for symbolism about the scarab and the yellow volkswagon bug, and of course tumbled across all of this minutia. It has been so fascinating that I am trying to soak up as much as I can."

Oh, please, if you haven't, visit one of my favorite threads on the board! Guaranteed to blow your mind:

invanddis.proboards29.com/index.cgi?board=ra&action=display&thread=4922

Grandfather Aleister deserves some sort of award for all the clues in that one!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks to this one for pointing this out.





When I saw the upper set of eyes, I was immediately reminded of the thread here where GN (sunking)
was talking about Paul's aunt playing the role.

invanddis.proboards29.com/index.cgi?board=TAR&action=display&thread=4682&page=1



Her eyes were like the top set of eyes are.




And that made me think that this:

"A passage describes a coitus in the style of Seth where he leaps upon the goddess
Anat (aunt?) as a RAM, deflowers her with a chisel, and rapes her with fire. (the fireman?)
It is remarkable that in this passage bisexual traits are ascribed to Anat;
she is “clad as men and girt as women” and “acting as a male.”

So Paul is now both male (Paul) and female (his aunt, Faul)
and he is her "offspring" so to speak.

"...it sounds like Horace is performing felatio on Set, probably not willingly. In fact, there is an indication of child molestation in there, because of the timing, but that is beyond my understanding at this point.

When Seth withdraws his phallus, he ejaculates into Horace's eye. Set's semen has some kind of "poison" (maybe not poison?) but it is related to the venom of a scorpion.

So this "injurs" the eye, but the eye is detachable after that, and ends up on the forehead of Set and is used later by Osiris to see supernatural things - so this is a symbol yet to be identified.

The fingers thing is a different part of the story. It involves anal penetration and massaging of the prostate, as taught by Isis. Then they ridicule him for his premature ejaclation! Anyway, Isis is the one who gets Horus to ejaculate on the lettuce, then feeding it to Seth causing him to give birth to Thoth."

Obladi obladah!