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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 15:34:34 GMT -5
When you see all those stories together in one place, the consistencies get pretty strange.
Did you notice how almost all of them came from Washington D.C. or Virginia?
Did you notice how many of them had parents that committed suicide?
Did you notice how many of the artists died at age 27? Why 27?
And what about the nazi bunker built in the next canyon, only two miles from where Manson and followers spent the summer of '68 at Wilson's home? That is a really large compound, and incredibly expensive to build on a whim.
And coincidental that Manson showed up in Laurel Canyon right after their first Master of Ceremonies disappears? Convenient.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 16:36:17 GMT -5
Back to Jim Morrison for a minute: I think you may have missed part of the story, which is understandable, because it is a very long article. But he goes into quite some detail about how Jim Morrison just arrived with all of his songs already written. He had never been a singer, never wrote music, didn't know how to play any instrument, and after that first miraculous batch of songs, never wrote another song again. This implies that there was no question about what HE should write about, because he never actually wrote anything. Someone else wrote them. The songs came with musical accompaniment, but how exactly did he write music when he can't read music? The authors suggests - did he hum them the tune? Puzzled, It is a bit strange for Jim to have written songs with no ability to play an instrument, but a singing voice, an ability to hum, and a supporting cast of talented, interpretive musicians could certainly have helped him to turn words and melodies into fully formed songs. Having said that, however, there's more than enough other strangeness surrounding Jim and the Doors for us to question the songwriting as well. Speaking of... Waiting For The Sun
"At first flash of Eden, we race down to the sea Standing there on Freedom's Shore Waiting for the Sun Can you feel it now that spring has come? And it's time to live in the scattered sun Waiting for the Sun Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting.... Waiting for you to - come along Waiting for you to - hear my song Waiting for you to - come along Waiting for you to - tell me what went wrong This is the strangest life I've ever known. YEAH! Can you feel it now that spring has come? And it's time to live in the scattered sun Waiting for the Sun"
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 16:56:41 GMT -5
When you see all those stories together in one place, the consistencies get pretty strange. Did you notice how almost all of them came from Washington D.C. or Virginia? Did you notice how many of them had parents that committed suicide? Did you notice how many of the artists died at age 27? Why 27? And what about the nazi bunker built in the next canyon, only two miles from where Manson and followers spent the summer of '68 at Wilson's home? That is a really large compound, and incredibly expensive to build on a whim. And coincidental that Manson showed up in Laurel Canyon right after their first Master of Ceremonies disappears? Convenient. Also coincidental that the Spahn ranch was raided on August 16, 1969, and this photo was taken: crime.about.com/od/murder/p/charliemanson3.htmMeanwhile, the album (Abbey Road) that contains the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 lyric wasn't released until 9/26/69.
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Post by iameye on Dec 3, 2008 17:21:58 GMT -5
When you see all those stories together in one place, the consistencies get pretty strange. Did you notice how almost all of them came from Washington D.C. or Virginia? Did you notice how many of them had parents that committed suicide? Did you notice how many of the artists died at age 27? Why 27? And what about the nazi bunker built in the next canyon, only two miles from where Manson and followers spent the summer of '68 at Wilson's home? That is a really large compound, and incredibly expensive to build on a whim. And coincidental that Manson showed up in Laurel Canyon right after their first Master of Ceremonies disappears? Convenient. Also coincidental that the Spahn ranch was raided on August 16, 1969, and this photo was taken: crime.about.com/od/murder/p/charliemanson3.htmMeanwhile, the album (Abbey Road) that contains the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 lyric wasn't released until 9/26/69. why is elvis' name on there and who changed it?
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 17:22:09 GMT -5
It is a bit strange for Jim to have written songs with no ability to play an instrument, but a singing voice, an ability to hum, and a supporting cast of talented, interpretive musicians could certainly have helped him to turn words and melodies into fully formed songs.
Except that none of the people in the band knew how to play any music, and didn't even own instruments. Someone else had to buy instruments and provide them. Now if he said he hummed his own song to another musician, who then in turn wrote the sheet music, and then they in turn taught the musicians how to play it, I could buy that - except that isn't what they say happened.
It appears that someone provided pre-written songs, found people that were easily controlled, and taught them to fake it enough to get by.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 17:43:41 GMT -5
Iameye:
Regarding the Helter Skelter door, has anyone ever made a statement or given an explanation as to how that happened? Or do they just ignore the dates?
What is the implication? Would that mean that one or more of the Beatles had been at Spahn Ranch, seen this statement, or been there to understand what it meant? - OR
Was Manson given access to the music months before it was released to the public, so that he could receive his "trigger" in a timely manner? - OR
Maybe Manson actually wrote the songs? Feasible, considering how much recording he did with Melcher and Wilson - and of course all those tapes mysteriously disappeared. In the article, Wilson claimed that he did actually remember some things from that time, and would maybe tell the world some day - right before he was found drowned.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 18:25:47 GMT -5
It is a bit strange for Jim to have written songs with no ability to play an instrument, but a singing voice, an ability to hum, and a supporting cast of talented, interpretive musicians could certainly have helped him to turn words and melodies into fully formed songs. Except that none of the people in the band knew how to play any music, and didn't even own instruments. Someone else had to buy instruments and provide them. Now if he said he hummed his own song to another musician, who then in turn wrote the sheet music, and then they in turn taught the musicians how to play it, I could buy that - except that isn't what they say happened. It appears that someone provided pre-written songs, found people that were easily controlled, and taught them to fake it enough to get by. You might be confusing the Doors with another band, puzzled. Possibly the Byrds, some of whom had never played their instruments before joining, according to the Laurel Canyon piece. Ray Manzarek and Robbie Krieger could both play before joining the Doors. Ray Manzarek is of Polish descent, born and raised on the South Side of Chicago, as were his parents. Growing up, he took private piano lessons from Bruno Michelotti and others. He went to Everett Elementary School on S. Bell St. and attended St. Rita High School in Chicago. He majored in economics at DePaul University.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Manzarek
A native of Los Angeles, California, Krieger learned to play guitar when he attended Menlo School (formerly a boarding school in the San Francisco Bay area). He started by tuning a ukulele like the bottom four strings of a guitar and imitating a flamenco guitar record. He later purchased a flamenco guitar on a Christmas vacation in Puerto Vallarta in 1963 and mastered the style without benefit of lessons. He gradually grew tired of playing flamenco and helped form a jug band called the Back Bay Chamberpot Terriers with Bill Wolff (later of the Peanut Butter Conspiracy).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robby_KriegerThe Laurel Canyon piece DOES suggest that no one in the Doors had BAND experience before joining, but if you have a good ear, and an ability to play piano, then you can determine which chords to play beneath a given vocal melody. Same with guitar. Moreover, both Manzarek and Krieger have very distinct styles, too. I'm not saying that Jim did or didn't write those songs, I'm just saying that it's not unheard of for a person who doesn't play any instruments to write words and melody (which are the elements of a song that are copyrightable, btw), and then collaborate with musicians on the chords. And incidentally, in my opinion, a LOT of Doors songs aren't very good *songs*. They're just sold well by the sheer magnetic charisma of Jim's voice. In other words, if you gave a song like The Crystal Ship to just about any other band, it would sound ridiculous, because you need that powerful, bombastic baritone to make it work. And the best thing on their first album (The End) is more of a two chord drone with spoken word accompaniment than an actual *song*. Either way, I think that our discussion here is a GOOD thing! I can't find any footage from prior to 1968, but as you can see, they had it together by then. Manzarek is playing bass with his right hand and organ with his left, which is quite a feat of ambidextrousness (ambidexstosity??? ;D).
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Post by iameye on Dec 3, 2008 18:46:42 GMT -5
Iameye: Regarding the Helter Skelter door, has anyone ever made a statement or given an explanation as to how that happened? Or do they just ignore the dates? What is the implication? Would that mean that one or more of the Beatles had been at Spahn Ranch, seen this statement, or been there to understand what it meant? - OR Was Manson given access to the music months before it was released to the public, so that he could receive his "trigger" in a timely manner? - OR Maybe Manson actually wrote the songs? Feasible, considering how much recording he did with Melcher and Wilson - and of course all those tapes mysteriously disappeared. In the article, Wilson claimed that he did actually remember some things from that time, and would maybe tell the world some day - right before he was found drowned. anything is possible, yet not necessarily relevant. We are dealing with too many fragmented details...... the Manson door, someone has a good blog on that, but I don't remember where...... anyway, the point is that it was altered, and ELVIS was blacked out,,,when? and why? why would that be so important to tamper with "evidence"? before public view? there was also supposedly a mural that was dismantled or something and not presented to the public for scrutiny..... as for a pre-emptive date for the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 thing, a month or two off the time line makes not much difference as to why it's there. I'm sure these things ( lyrics) circulated due to the many friend "connections" at that time. I've posted before on this, maybe I can find the link later....
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Post by B on Dec 3, 2008 18:51:35 GMT -5
As a long-time BYRDS fan, I must say that while their drummer was literally pulled off the street, McGuinn was a top-notch guitar player and a song writer as well, Hillman and Crosby knew some guitar, while Gene Clark wrote lyrics, poetry, etc. and also had some musical skills. It wasn't like THE MONKEES, where Mike Nesmith was the only musician in the group, and not professionally at the time. The record studios had professional studio musicians play on the first two albums, with McGuinn being the only actual band member playing on them, but that was fairly typical of "how it was done" in those days. Which should tell you a lot. There absolutely was "a conspiracy" where people with talent were made use of, imo. Preston Nichols says that in some instances, songs were released under an artist's name, but not actually sung by them in the recordings that made them famous, though that wasn't typical. puzzled wrote: "What is the implication? Would that mean that one or more of the Beatles had been at Spahn Ranch, seen this statement, or been there to understand what it meant? - OR
Was Manson given access to the music months before it was released to the public, so that he could receive his "trigger" in a timely manner? - OR"There are some pictures in the Rotten Apple thread of what may be McCartney at the Spahn Ranch. Certainly that door suggests that a Beatle may have been there. It may be coincidence, but the "Spahn" ranch is an interesting name.
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 19:08:48 GMT -5
As a long-time BYRDS fan, I must say that while their drummer was literally pulled off the street, McGuinn was a top-notch guitar player and a song writer as well, Hillman and Crosby knew some guitar, while Gene Clarke wrote lyrics, poetry, etc. and also had some musical skills. It wasn't like THE MONKEES, where Mike Nesmith was the only musician in the group, and not professionally at the time. The record studios had professional studio musicians play on the first two albums, with McGuinn being the only actual band member playing on them, but that was fairly typical of "how it was done" in those days. Which should tell you a lot. There absolutely was "a conspiracy" where people with talent were made use of, imo. Preston Nichols says that in some instances, songs were released under an artist's name, but not actually sung by them in the recordings that made them famous, though that wasn't typical. puzzled wrote: "What is the implication? Would that mean that one or more of the Beatles had been at Spahn Ranch, seen this statement, or been there to understand what it meant? - OR
Was Manson given access to the music months before it was released to the public, so that he could receive his "trigger" in a timely manner? - OR"There are some pictures in the Rotten Apple thread of what may be McCartney at the Spahn Ranch. Certainly that door suggests that a Beatle may have been there. It may be coincidence, but the "Spahn" ranch is an interesting name. It definitely wouldn't shock me to find out that one or more of the Beatles had visited the ranch, or met family members at 10050 Cielo Drive when Terry Melcher lived there, or at Denis Wilson's house, or at the Spiral Staircase. www.charliemanson.com/places/spiral-staircase.htmIt could also be that the lads were given kernels of ideas to write about, by Manson's handlers. This could have happened indirectly, though someone like Mal, or more directly, if you assume that the lads were tools and KNEW it. Either way, they wouldn't necessarily have had to know anything more than "we'd like you to write a raunchy song and include the phrase "Helter Skelter, it's coming down fast", or "Piggies", or "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7...".
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 19:12:56 GMT -5
I am only repeating Mr. McGowan's research regarding the history of these musicians. I have no personal knowledge - but he seems to have really done his homework, and has quotes from other people's autobiographies, etc. attesting to these facts....?
There are quotes by people who worked with them in the studios, explaining that they fixed things mechanically, but they couldn't hide their inability to play in live settings.
It was claimed that the Dancers would come into the clubs and create such a scene that no one really noticed how bad the music was, as it was more of a wild experience and not a recital.
Certainly, once someone was acting as a musician, I'm sure they could learn, or get instruction, or learn to fake better - or whatever it took to get the job done.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 19:32:27 GMT -5
It is such a long article - I am trying to find the pertinent quotes. At the very beginning of this journey, I noted that Jim Morrison’s story was not “in any way unique.” As it turns out, however, that proclamation is not exactly true. It was a true enough statement in the context in which it appeared – which is to say that Morrison’s family background did not differ significantly from that of his musical peers – but in many other significant ways, Jim Morrison was indeed a most unique individual, and quite possibly the unlikeliest rock star to ever stumble across a stage. Morrison essentially arrived on the scene as a fully-developed rock star, complete with a backing band, a stage persona and an impressive collection of songs – enough, in fact, to fill the Doors’ first few albums. How exactly Jim Morrison reinvented himself in such a radical manner remains something of a mystery, since before his sudden incarnation as singer/songwriter, James Douglas Morrison had never shown the slightest interest in music. None whatsoever. He certainly never studied music and could neither read nor write it. By his own account, he never had much of an interest in even listening to music. He told one interviewer that he “never went to concerts – one or two at most.” And before joining the Doors, he “never did any singing. I never even conceived of it.” Asked near the end of his life if he had ever had any desire to learn to play a musical instrument, Jim responded, “Not really.” So here we had a guy who had never sang (apparently not even in the shower or in his car, which seems rather odd to me), who had “never even conceived” of the notion that he could open his mouth and makes sounds come out, and who couldn’t play an instrument and had no interest in learning such a skill, and who had never much listened to music or been anywhere near a band, even just to watch one perform, and yet this guy somehow emerged, virtually overnight, as a fully-formed rock star who would quickly become an icon of his generation. And even more bizarrely, legend holds that he brought with him enough original songs to fill the first few Doors’ albums. Morrison did not, you see, do as any other singer/songwriter does and pen the songs over the course of the band’s career; instead, he allegedly wrote them all at once, before the band was even formed. As Jim once acknowledged in an interview, he was “not a very prolific songwriter. Most of the songs I’ve written I wrote in the very beginning, about three years ago. I just had a period when I wrote a lot of songs.” In fact, all of the good songs that Morrison is credited with writing were written during that period – the period during which, according to rock legend, Jim spent most of his time hanging out on the rooftop of a Venice apartment building, consuming copious amounts of LSD. This was just before he hooked up with fellow student Ray Manzarek to form the Doors. Legend also holds, strangely enough, that that chance meeting occurred on the beach, though it seems far more likely that the pair would have actually met at UCLA, where both attended the university’s rather small and close-knit film school. In any event, the question that naturally arises (though it does not appear to have ever been asked of him) is: how exactly did Jim “The Lizard King” Morrison write that impressive batch of songs? I’m certainly no musician myself, but it is my understanding that just about every singer/songwriter across the land composes his or her songs in essentially the same manner: on an instrument – usually either a piano or a guitar. Some songwriters, I hear, can compose on paper, but that requires a skill set that Jim did not possess. The problem, of course, is that he also could not play a musical instrument of any kind. How then did he write the songs? He would have had to have composed them, I’m guessing, in his head. So we are to believe then that a few dozen complete songs, never heard by anyone and never played by any musician, existed only in Jim Morrison’s acid-addled brain. Anything is possible, I suppose, but even if we accept that premise, we are still left with some nagging questions, including the question of how those songs got out of Jim Morrison’s head. As a general rule of thumb, if a songwriter doesn’t know how to read and write music, he can play the song for someone who does and thereby create the sheet music (which was the case, for example, with all of the songs that Brian Wilson penned for the Beach Boys). But Jim quite obviously could not play his own songs. So did he, I don’t know, maybe hum them? And these are, it should be clarified, songs that we are talking about here, as opposed to just lyrics, which would more accurately be categorized as poems. Because Jim, as we all know, was quite a prolific poet, whereas he was a songwriter only for one brief period in his life. But why was that? Why did Morrison, with no previous interest in music, suddenly and inexplicably become a prolific songwriter, only to just as suddenly lose interest after mentally penning an impressive catalogue of what would become regarded as rock staples? And how and why did Jim achieve the accompanying physical transformation that changed him from a clean-cut, collegiate, and rather conservative looking young man into the brooding sex symbol who would take the country by storm? And why, after a few years of adopting that persona, did Jim transform once again, in the last year or so of his life, into an overweight, heavily-bearded, reclusive poet who seemed to have lost his interest in music just as suddenly and inexplicably as he had obtained it? It wasn’t just Morrison who was, in retrospect, a bit of an oddity; the entire band differed from other Laurel Canyon bands in a number of significant ways. As Vanity Fair noted many years ago, “The Doors were always different.” All four members of the group, for example, lacked previous band experience. Morrison and Manzarek, as noted, were film students, and drummer John Densmore and guitarist Robby Kreiger were recruited by Manzarek from his Transcendental Meditation class – which is, I guess, where one goes to find musicians to fill out one’s band. That class, however, apparently lacked a bass player, so they did without – except for those times when they used session musicians and then claimed that they did without. Anyway, the point is that none of the four members of the Doors had band credentials. Even a band as contrived as the Byrds, as we shall soon see, had members with band credentials. So too did Buffalo Springfield, with Neil Young and Bruce Palmer, for example, having played in the Mynah Birds, backing a young vocalist by the name of Rick “Superfreak” James (Goldie McJohn of Steppenwolf, oddly enough, had been a Mynah Bird as well). The Mamas and the Papas were put together from elements of the Journeymen and the Mugwumps. And so on with the rest of the Laurel Canyon bands The Doors could cite no such band lineage. They were just four guys who happened to come together to play the songs written by the singer who had never sung but who had a sudden calling and a magical gift for songwriting. And as you would expect with four guys who had never actually played in a band before, they pretty much sucked. But don’t take my word for it; let’s let the band’s producer, Paul Rothchild, weigh in: “The Doors were not great live performers musically. They were exciting theatrically and kinetically, but as musicians they didn’t make it; there was too much inconsistency, there was too much bad music. Robby would be horrendously out of tune with Ray, John would be missing cues, there was bad mike usage too, where you couldn’t hear Jim at all.” www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr103.html
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 20:25:57 GMT -5
It is such a long article - I am trying to find the pertinent quotes. At the very beginning of this journey, I noted that Jim Morrison’s story was not “in any way unique.” As it turns out, however, that proclamation is not exactly true. It was a true enough statement in the context in which it appeared – which is to say that Morrison’s family background did not differ significantly from that of his musical peers – but in many other significant ways, Jim Morrison was indeed a most unique individual, and quite possibly the unlikeliest rock star to ever stumble across a stage. Morrison essentially arrived on the scene as a fully-developed rock star, complete with a backing band, a stage persona and an impressive collection of songs – enough, in fact, to fill the Doors’ first few albums. How exactly Jim Morrison reinvented himself in such a radical manner remains something of a mystery, since before his sudden incarnation as singer/songwriter, James Douglas Morrison had never shown the slightest interest in music. None whatsoever. He certainly never studied music and could neither read nor write it. By his own account, he never had much of an interest in even listening to music. He told one interviewer that he “never went to concerts – one or two at most.” And before joining the Doors, he “never did any singing. I never even conceived of it.” Asked near the end of his life if he had ever had any desire to learn to play a musical instrument, Jim responded, “Not really.” So here we had a guy who had never sang (apparently not even in the shower or in his car, which seems rather odd to me), who had “never even conceived” of the notion that he could open his mouth and makes sounds come out, and who couldn’t play an instrument and had no interest in learning such a skill, and who had never much listened to music or been anywhere near a band, even just to watch one perform, and yet this guy somehow emerged, virtually overnight, as a fully-formed rock star who would quickly become an icon of his generation. And even more bizarrely, legend holds that he brought with him enough original songs to fill the first few Doors’ albums. Morrison did not, you see, do as any other singer/songwriter does and pen the songs over the course of the band’s career; instead, he allegedly wrote them all at once, before the band was even formed. As Jim once acknowledged in an interview, he was “not a very prolific songwriter. Most of the songs I’ve written I wrote in the very beginning, about three years ago. I just had a period when I wrote a lot of songs.” In fact, all of the good songs that Morrison is credited with writing were written during that period – the period during which, according to rock legend, Jim spent most of his time hanging out on the rooftop of a Venice apartment building, consuming copious amounts of LSD. This was just before he hooked up with fellow student Ray Manzarek to form the Doors. Legend also holds, strangely enough, that that chance meeting occurred on the beach, though it seems far more likely that the pair would have actually met at UCLA, where both attended the university’s rather small and close-knit film school. In any event, the question that naturally arises (though it does not appear to have ever been asked of him) is: how exactly did Jim “The Lizard King” Morrison write that impressive batch of songs? I’m certainly no musician myself, but it is my understanding that just about every singer/songwriter across the land composes his or her songs in essentially the same manner: on an instrument – usually either a piano or a guitar. Some songwriters, I hear, can compose on paper, but that requires a skill set that Jim did not possess. The problem, of course, is that he also could not play a musical instrument of any kind. How then did he write the songs? He would have had to have composed them, I’m guessing, in his head. So we are to believe then that a few dozen complete songs, never heard by anyone and never played by any musician, existed only in Jim Morrison’s acid-addled brain. Anything is possible, I suppose, but even if we accept that premise, we are still left with some nagging questions, including the question of how those songs got out of Jim Morrison’s head. As a general rule of thumb, if a songwriter doesn’t know how to read and write music, he can play the song for someone who does and thereby create the sheet music (which was the case, for example, with all of the songs that Brian Wilson penned for the Beach Boys). But Jim quite obviously could not play his own songs. So did he, I don’t know, maybe hum them? And these are, it should be clarified, songs that we are talking about here, as opposed to just lyrics, which would more accurately be categorized as poems. Because Jim, as we all know, was quite a prolific poet, whereas he was a songwriter only for one brief period in his life. But why was that? Why did Morrison, with no previous interest in music, suddenly and inexplicably become a prolific songwriter, only to just as suddenly lose interest after mentally penning an impressive catalogue of what would become regarded as rock staples? And how and why did Jim achieve the accompanying physical transformation that changed him from a clean-cut, collegiate, and rather conservative looking young man into the brooding sex symbol who would take the country by storm? And why, after a few years of adopting that persona, did Jim transform once again, in the last year or so of his life, into an overweight, heavily-bearded, reclusive poet who seemed to have lost his interest in music just as suddenly and inexplicably as he had obtained it? It wasn’t just Morrison who was, in retrospect, a bit of an oddity; the entire band differed from other Laurel Canyon bands in a number of significant ways. As Vanity Fair noted many years ago, “The Doors were always different.” All four members of the group, for example, lacked previous band experience. Morrison and Manzarek, as noted, were film students, and drummer John Densmore and guitarist Robby Kreiger were recruited by Manzarek from his Transcendental Meditation class – which is, I guess, where one goes to find musicians to fill out one’s band. That class, however, apparently lacked a bass player, so they did without – except for those times when they used session musicians and then claimed that they did without. Anyway, the point is that none of the four members of the Doors had band credentials. Even a band as contrived as the Byrds, as we shall soon see, had members with band credentials. So too did Buffalo Springfield, with Neil Young and Bruce Palmer, for example, having played in the Mynah Birds, backing a young vocalist by the name of Rick “Superfreak” James (Goldie McJohn of Steppenwolf, oddly enough, had been a Mynah Bird as well). The Mamas and the Papas were put together from elements of the Journeymen and the Mugwumps. And so on with the rest of the Laurel Canyon bands The Doors could cite no such band lineage. They were just four guys who happened to come together to play the songs written by the singer who had never sung but who had a sudden calling and a magical gift for songwriting. And as you would expect with four guys who had never actually played in a band before, they pretty much sucked. But don’t take my word for it; let’s let the band’s producer, Paul Rothchild, weigh in: “The Doors were not great live performers musically. They were exciting theatrically and kinetically, but as musicians they didn’t make it; there was too much inconsistency, there was too much bad music. Robby would be horrendously out of tune with Ray, John would be missing cues, there was bad mike usage too, where you couldn’t hear Jim at all.” www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr103.htmlAll of this is fine, puzzled, but "writing songs" is totally different from performing live as a band. Bad mic usage on a stage has nothing to do with writing songs. A guitar player being out of tune with the keyboard on stage has nothing to do with writing songs. I'm making one tiny little point here, and that point is that Jim Morrison COULD have written those songs, and there'd be nothing miraculous about it, as McGowan would have you believe. Every song writer who ever lived had to write his/her first song. In other words, there's a moment when someone is NOT a songwriter, and then the next moment (after they've finished their first song), they ARE a songwriter, and being proficient on a instument, and/or being able to tune a guitar by ear, or being able to function as a band, on a stage, in front of other people doesn't necessarily enter into it. Some of what Dave McGowan is saying is objective; "All four members of the group, for example, lacked previous band experience." That's a statement of "fact", and I'm not arguing that. Everything he says about songwriting, however, is purely subjective, and I believe he admits at one point to not being a musician himself. If Ray Manzarek could play piano (which he could) and Jim Morrison could write lyrics and melodies, then he could sing those melodies while Manzarek played piano, and before you'd know it, they'd have a song. It really IS that simple. And like I said in a previous post, the Doors songs didn't even have to be *that* good, because they could get by on Jim's charisma. I've really been trying to avoid doing this, but I am a musician. I've been in many bands, and have spent 15 years around many different songwriters (including myself). In fact, I wrote my first song when the only instrument I could play was drums (I play guitar now). I did it by writing a poem and then creating a melody for it. Then, I sang the words and melody to a friend who knew about 5 guitar chords (of which, 3 were used). If we would have tried to perform it on stage, it would have sucked, because I can't sing, and she could barely play, but it was a pretty good song, and I recorded it years later and you'd probobly never guess how it was written by listening to it. The Doors were probably NOT a great *band* when they first started. I'm not debating that. But again, Morrison could have written those songs. That's all. Oh, and I DO know that I can seem like a pedantic asshole at times, but I'm just trying to be as clear as possible. I hope you understand, because you've been a breath of fresh air to the board.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 20:46:37 GMT -5
I fully agree with your statement P(D)enny. It is all speculation, and I am only stating Mr. McGowan's ideas. But even if your scenario is closer to the truth, I think this version is still a far cry from the fantasies that we've been fed about why any of these people actually ended up being superstars. And even if Jim Morrison wrote some poetry and hummed it to a piano player - when you mix it in with everything else that was going on in Laurel Canyon at the time, it certainly makes one wonder. And thank you for your nice welcome to the forum And what the heck does this have to do with Seth? I warned you guys that I can never stay on topic! I'm the wind, baby!
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Post by plastic paul on Dec 3, 2008 21:01:39 GMT -5
Letter B, "a long-time BYRDS fan" you must be some kinda maniac!!!
;D
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Post by B on Dec 3, 2008 21:16:29 GMT -5
;D puzzled wote: I'm the wind, baby! You know, don't you, that there is a song called "They call the wind Mariah"? They Call The Wind Mariawww.youtube.com/watch?v=c8e9F8PV-m4"Mariah blows the stars around And sets the clouds a-flyin' Mariah makes the mountains sound like folks was out there dyin' "Jimi Hendrix - The Wind Cries Marywww.youtube.com/watch?v=lOrpuw1J9OgAfter all the jacks are in their boxes and the clowns have all gone to bed You can hear happiness staggering on down the street Footprints dressed in red and the wind whispers mary A broom is drearily sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterdays life Somewhere a queen is weeping somewhere a king has no wife And the wind it cries mary The traffic lights they turn of blue tomorrow And shine their emptiness down on my bed The tiny island sails downstream cause the life that lived is is dead And the wind screams mary Will the wind ever remember the names it has blown in the past And with this crutch its old age and its wisdom It whispers no this will be the last And the wind cries mary
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 3, 2008 21:18:16 GMT -5
I fully agree with your statement P(D)enny. It is all speculation, and I am only stating Mr. McGowan's ideas. But even if your scenario is closer to the truth, I think this version is still a far cry from the fantasies that we've been fed about why any of these people actually ended up being superstars. And even if Jim Morrison wrote some poetry and hummed it to a piano player - when you mix it in with everything else that was going on in Laurel Canyon at the time, it certainly makes one wonder. And thank you for your nice welcome to the forum And what the heck does this have to do with Seth? I warned you guys that I can never stay on topic! I'm the wind, baby! Puzzled wrote:
"But even if your scenario is closer to the truth, I think this version is still a far cry from the fantasies that we've been fed about why any of these people actually ended up being superstars. And even if Jim Morrison wrote some poetry and hummed it to a piano player - when you mix it in with everything else that was going on in Laurel Canyon at the time, it certainly makes one wonder."Oh, absolutely. You're preaching to the choir, sister! I'm the one who keeps posting links to the Laurel Canyon series, and I posted the Spahn Ranch door, too. When McGowan went more than two months without an update, I was chomping at some serious bit. In fact, I've gotten almost every one of my friends completely hooked on it. I guess I should have just been more clear from the get-go that I wasn't questioning YOU. I was just questioning that one, very small part of McGowan's AWESOME piece. And yes -- there was a whole lot going on in Laurel Canyon, and I'm of the opinion that hardly any of it was coincidence. Like I said last night, I believe that just about every social movement of the past (at least) 65 years has been a product of the intelligence community, and that includes Jim Morrison and the Doors. Even though he probably could and perhaps did write those songs, he was also being directed by a hidden hand.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 21:28:04 GMT -5
Being such a newb, I suppose it is impossible for me to not rehash all the same old stuff you guys have found years ago. The whole experience is so mind-blowing It seems like once you see behind the curtain in one small area, it opens your eyes to the same modus operandi happening in so many other situations, and then all of a sudden it seems like you have been living some fake life in a fake world, and everything in your experience has truly been an illusion. Before I thought I understood that "maya" or illusion meant that I was putting illusory importance on intangible things. I had no idea that what they really meant was that the Father of Lies has a lock-down on this dimension, so believe nothing that you see, hear, taste, smell, or feel!
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Post by plastic paul on Dec 3, 2008 21:52:51 GMT -5
I personally don't see the lyrics as being much of a problem, because I have always thought that the Doors' lyrics have always been slightly peculiar - that is to say unique in the fact it sounds more like prose than song.
My guess is that Morrison was a poet first and a musician second.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 3, 2008 22:12:58 GMT -5
Mr B:
Well, that song always makes me think of Mariah Carey, and I don't want to have ANY connection to that woman! She should be the poster-child for programmed zombie droolers.
Have you ever watched "Mystery Science Theater 3000?" My quote comes from the robot Tom Servo, in response to Gypsy's statement of "I just don't get you..." Tom says "You'll never understand me, cuz I'm the wind baby!" and then he twirls off screen. ;D
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Post by B on Dec 3, 2008 22:16:20 GMT -5
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Post by P(D)enny La(i)ne on Dec 4, 2008 8:28:29 GMT -5
Mr B: Well, that song always makes me think of Mariah Carey, and I don't want to have ANY connection to that woman! She should be the poster-child for programmed zombie droolers. Have you ever watched "Mystery Science Theater 3000?" My quote comes from the robot Tom Servo, in response to Gypsy's statement of "I just don't get you..." Tom says "You'll never understand me, cuz I'm the wind baby!" and then he twirls off screen. ;D Ha! I LOVE MST3K, and I love that scene, too. I named a dog after Gypsy!
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Post by iameye on Dec 4, 2008 8:35:30 GMT -5
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Post by puzzled on Dec 4, 2008 12:39:13 GMT -5
That is awesome! I had no idea they made those. Apparently I'm not the only one that likes that quote then - shoot, I thought I was original.
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Post by puzzled on Dec 4, 2008 15:47:18 GMT -5
I've been looking for connections with Sirius, and found this quote. I don't necessarily accept the author's conclusions, but the comment about "Seth's Foreleg" is interesting. books.google.com/books?id=zNkgyyPr7kwC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=set+seth+connection+to+sirius&source=bl&ots=HOdR7TlPQN&sig=gc5QC2V73jr8SXxRVLJgdSSbDRo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result"Exploring Ancient Skies" by David H. Kelley, E.F. Milone. An alternative name for the Bull's Thigh constellation was "The Foreleg of Seth," which is mentioned in a text of the time of Ramses VI quoted by Neugebauer and Parker, "as to this Foreleg of Seth, it is in the northern sky, tied to two mooring posts of flint by a chain of gold. It is entrusted to Isis as a hippopotamus guarding it." A text from Esna says that it is Sirius "who tethers the Foreleg in the northern sky, not letting it go upside down into the Duat." [...] Clearly, Isis as Hippopotamus and Isis as Sirius are both tied to the Bull's Thigh in some fashion. I really don't know if this connects with anything yet, but I will keep throwing stuff out that I find in case someone else can make sense of it. This is the benefit of borrowing all of your eyes! ;D
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